Look before berating

[ikirchner]

After some in depth thinking about why it was I always seemed to lose large amounts of chips/money with what I thought was a super great hand, I started to realize that I wasn't looking at the situations from a truly objective point of view. It was at this point that I realized amongst other things that I needed to vary my play up so that people couldn't put me on a specific hand, but that is a topic for another time.

I would like to tell you about a hand I played, and get your reactions to how you thought about it before I showed my anylization of the hand to see how many of you carry a bias toward hands being bad beats when they really aren't.

I was on the button with 37s(clubs) and the UTG bets $5 straight (in a 1-2 NL). There are two callers to me and I also call. The bb makes it 5 handed. The flop is 7h-9c-5c. The original raiser bets 5 dollars and everyone folds to me. I call the 5 dollars. Turn is 4s. Raiser bets 5, I call 5. River is 3s. He bets 10 dollars, I call and beat his Jacks with two pair.

Now at first sight, I think MANY people would say what the hell was he doing calling with 37? With three people already in the pot and a potential for two more, I am getting good odds to call the pot. On the flop, I put him on some overpair, but with a 5 dollar bet into a 25 dollar pot a call is a no brainer. In actuality I was technically a slight favorite with my hand to an overpair (you can look up the exact odds), so I probably would have even called a bigger bet. The turn then gave me 3 extra outs, so of course I'm gonna call a 5 dollar bet. In the end the raiser was upset about it, but at least he could laugh about it. I just encourage people to look at the full situation before they judge perceived bad beats as such. In the end the only way to become better is to look at the mistakes YOU make and try an eliminate them.

[Bruno]

I was on the button with 37s(clubs) and the UTG bets $5 straight (in a 1-2 NL). There are two callers to me and I also call..

You took a flier on a really poor hand.

The bb makes it 5 handed. The flop is 7h-9c-5c. The original raiser bets 5 dollars and everyone folds to me. I call the 5 dollars.

His $5 bet was a big mistake on his part. He gave pot odds to call with any pair or a flush draw.

Turn is 4s. Raiser bets 5, I call 5.

Again, his $5 bet was a mistake on his part. Again, he gave pot odds to call.

River is 3s. He bets 10 dollars, I call and beat his Jacks with two pair. <snip> I put him on some overpair <unsnip>

He gave you the odds to call, you did, and you hit your small card for two pair. But, if you really did put him on an overpair, why didn't you reraise him? Since he played his hand this poorly, didn't you think he'd call you?

In the end the only way to become better is to look at the mistakes YOU make and try an eliminate them.

That's a big part of it, learning from your mistakes....

[ikirchner]

Bruno, thank you for making my point more clear.

The original preflop call was indeed very situational. After that, the reason I won the hand was because of capitalizing on poor play. It is funny you ask as to why I didn't reraise on the end. I did it because I felt bad for beating him with 37. This "compassion" was a mistake on my part, and something I will need to correct if I am to become anything close to good.

[Oz]

ikirchner -

I understand your point (and it's one I share): your opponent played the hand in such a way as to invite his "bad beat". This hand is a great example of why small/minimum bets are almost always wrong in no limit.

But I'd like to address your play of the hand also. Mostly having to do with playing 73s in position. 2 points:

1) I'm not going to berate you for playing the hand to start with. I believe that it is possible (but difficult) to play the hand profitably. The main value in this play is your position though, which you didn't use to maximum benefit.

2) By any measure, 9c 7h 5c is a fantastic flop for your hand. As you mentioned, you were actually a (very slight) favorite over an overpair, as long as he didn't have the Jc. This is a perfect situation to put the preflop raiser to the test with a pot sized raise. IMO, you shouldn't play hands like 73s if you can't play flops like this strongly.

Otherwise, congrats on sucking out! :)

-Oz-

[ikirchner]

Oz-

I didn't intend for this to be a discussion about my play, but thank you for responding to it anyway. It is greatly appreciated.

On the flop it was down to just the raiser and myself and he had about 40 dollars left in front of him. If I raise any amount, I was confident that he would call (all in if necessary) based on playing with him before so I felt a raise would not do any good. This being the case, it was better to just let the cards come down. I will admit to you, just as I did to Bruno that I fully misplayed the hand on the end.

Again thank you,
Isaac

[tjholdem]

Now at first sight, I think MANY people would say what the hell was he doing calling with 37? With three people already in the pot and a potential for two more, I am getting good odds to call the pot. On the flop, I put him on some overpair, but with a 5 dollar bet into a 25 dollar pot a call is a no brainer. In actuality I was technically a slight favorite with my hand to an overpair (you can look up the exact odds), so I probably would have even called a bigger bet. The turn then gave me 3 extra outs, so of course I'm gonna call a 5 dollar bet. In the end the raiser was upset about it, but at least he could laugh about it. I just encourage people to look at the full situation before they judge perceived bad beats as such. In the end the only way to become better is to look at the mistakes YOU make and try an eliminate them.

I don't think it was the right call at all. Although you are under the gun in this situation, you got lucky. I think the key is to try to avoid putting yourself in situations that could lead to trouble. The fact that you are on the button does give you an advantage, however, you should atleast have some sort of hand to play. You just got lucky. You will lose money more often than not in this situation. The money you lose in these situations is money that you would be able to use later for bigger pots. JMHO

[znamenacek]

I agree with tj - I don't like the call at all. Playing a hand like this is just asking for trouble. You are looking to make a big hand - two pair or better - to win. You need to hit this hand really hard (like a boat) in order to think you are good, and even then if your opponent hits their overpair (for a bigger boat) it is really going to cost you.

If you hit your flush, just about any other flush out there is better.
If you hit your straight, you need to watch out for a playable hand - like 7-8 - that will kill you (you were up against more than one player).
If you hit two pair on the flop or turn, you are in danger of the board pairing (not your card) and giving your opponent a better two pair, or your opponent hitting a set (say 9-9).
If you hit trips, you need to worry about your opponent hitting their overpair and making a boat.

In other words, if you expect to flop the nuts with this hand, you might as well go out and buy a lottery ticket. If you somehow knew his exact holdings this might not have been a bad call, but considering the chances of you making your hand and still losing, I think it is a bad call.

As far as mixing it up goes, that is a good thing to do, but I think you can pick a better hand than 6-3 suited to serve that purpose. Maybe I play too tight, but I wouldn't play this hand at a full table in limit or no-limit, raised or unraised pot, with the possible exception of a blind steal opportunity in position.

[Bruno]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of 73...sooted or not. But I do know (and play) with people who will play this kind of hand in position in NL cash games. They do this because of position, and their incredible ability to read opponents. They understand the concept of "pressure points", and have their opponents in the hands so well understood that the range of hands they have put them is very small: they put them on three maybe four hands after the flop. They understand what bets will get the opponent to fold, and what bets will get the opponent to call. They play "post flop" poker so well that they win by playing their opponent....NOT their hand.
And assuming that their read of the player is that he won't lay down an over pair, if they hit big on the hand they "gut" him (all his stack). So with this hand they are playing on position, their ability to understand their opponents, and implied odds.

Oz is right on here when he says:
it is possible (but difficult) to play the hand profitably. The main value in this play is your position.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not advocating playing anything just cause you are on the button. The great players can play that hand in position, cause they play the players, not the hand. There are a few guys locally who can do this (I ain't naming names).

[fLshondafLop]

I think that everyone here makes a good point. The decision to play the 73c is a mistake especially on a raised pot. Like someone said 7-8 suited or other suited connectors would have been a more reasonable play.

The point here is that you got really lucky on the river and you didn't have to play your opponent because of his poor play. If you did have to play your opponent (ie he raised a higher amount and took away your pot odds any time before the river) you probably would have folded and wrote the hand down as a loss.

He did play the JJs poorly, but you won that hand due to a lucky river card.

[BigDawg]

Howdy all. I'm a newbie here (as of today in fact).

I fully understand everyone's opinion regarding playing the weak hand, but isn't it possible to play the odd's using good old intuition? I admit, I wouldn't have played it, but doesn't poker involve playing a "hunch" from time to time?

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but the only way to understand the game is to ask others with more knowledge and skill.

Anyway, thanks from the new kid.

[Wetdog]

I'm not defending ikirchner's playing of 73s, but his point of pot odds. He stretched it a bit by assuming that there would be 5 in the hand. Luckily for him there was. With 25 (actually 30 with the flop bet) in the pot and it being 5 to go, pot odds were 6:1 and a 4 flush is about 1.8:1 plus having the small pair giving two more outs for a total of 11. There is sufficient room to call. Of course having a baby flush is not much of a comfort with multiple players, having everyone else fold after the lead out bet helps.

Nice suck out. Now let me tell you about the time my 62o ...

[Oz]

I fully understand everyone's opinion regarding playing the weak hand, but isn't it possible to play the odd's using good old intuition? I admit, I wouldn't have played it, but doesn't poker involve playing a "hunch" from time to time?

Welcome BigDawg. My essay may shed some light on your question: http://www.denverpoker.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=987

-Oz-

[BigDawg]

I fully understand everyone's opinion regarding playing the weak hand, but isn't it possible to play the odd's using good old intuition? I admit, I wouldn't have played it, but doesn't poker involve playing a "hunch" from time to time?

Welcome BigDawg. My essay may shed some light on your question: http://www.denverpoker.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=987

-Oz-

Thanks much Oz.

Any help is good help.

BTW - I just printed out the essay. Nice job!

-The Dawg-