why I hate donkeys, and why you should too!

[Bruno]

or "how to survive an atomic bomb"

I was playing in a SnG (Sit and Go) Shoot-Out last night, where the top two players (I know, I know....two?), moved on to another SnG, where the winner of that table gets a seat into a WSOP event. Big stuff, as far as I'm concerned. We were down to 5 players at our first table: One VERY large stack (about 60BB), three average stacks (about 20bb), and one small stack (about 6bb), who is a very VERY good and dangerous player. I was one of the average stacks. One of the average stacks was playing just about every hand, limping-in every time he played. I'm UTG and fold, "MrEveryhand" is to my left and he calls. Small Stack thinks for a bit, then raises all in for his 6bb. BigStack after him thinks for a bit....then folds. Next guy folds, and to "MrEveryhand", who says "I feel lucky" and calls almost instantly. Hands are tabled: small stack shows A10o, MrEveryhand shows 42o. That's right 42o! I couldn't control myself "What in the **** are you doing?" I ask MrEveryhand. "It's my chips" he replies, I can do whatever I want with them. It's none of your business, what are you so pissed-off for?". MrEveryhand has no relationship with SmallStack, so I know collusion is out. The only conclusion left to reach is that MrEveryhand is a donkey. "I'll tell you why I'm pissed-off, when the hand is over", I say to MrEveryhand. SmallStack's A10o holds up, and he doubles up to 13bb. "Why on God's earth would you want to double SmallStack up? He's a great GREAT player, and we've almost got him out. Now you've given him enough stack to play and make plays, and he's a factor in this game again. Congrats! Because you "can do whatever you want" with your chips you just decreased not only your chances of winning into the next table, but everyone else’s....."

Small two table tourney, maybe 1/2 hour out of the re-buy period. "HatSideways" has been a very loose player making big calls with K10o, Q9s etc, and this hasn't gone unnoticed at the table. HatSideways is UTG and he calls, and three other people call. BigBlind (who is by far the best player in the tourney, my self included) has an above average stack, goes into the tank for a bit, then declares "I'm all in" and pushes his stack in. Now, I've played with BigBlind quite a bit, and I KNOW, KNOW, he has a monster, and that he is setting HatSideways up. HatSideways thinks for quite a while, then calls. Everyone else folds and cards are tabled: BigBlind has AA, HatSideways has QhJh. "****in brilliant call" someone at the table says with disgust, probably mirroring everything that the all the other players are thinking. Flop has a queen in it and HatSideways stands up and starts talking "yea baby, here it comes, queen, QUEEN!" Turn is nothing, HatSideways still talking. River is a jack, "Yea baby, that's what I'm talking about! I knew that was coming. You know what I'm talkin' about!" Finally, someone tells HatSideways he is a moron. "Right, that's why I won. Who got all the chips?", he retorts. "No, you won cause you made a terrible call and you were stupid lucky". "You don't gamble? You're just mad cause I got all the chips!"......

Sigh......

Let me be absolutely clear: if it's a cash game, I'm completely happy with both of those plays by MrEveryhand and HatSideways. And if it's a cash game, I'll probably never say a word to them about how bad their plays were, unless it's in an effort to set them up for a play by me later. If the plays are against me and I lose those hands, I'll pull some bankroll out and get right back into the game. Cause this is a game I WANT to be in. That money will be coming back to me with monstrous interest. And almost always, those two donkeys will go home broke......

But these weren't cash game plays, they were Tournament/SnG games. In situation number one, the stupid play by MrEveryhand hurt the other two average stacks tremendously. Instead of having a player who's only move was almost always all-in, he had a whole new set of possibilities due to his double-up. And now BigStack would have to think twice about being sheriff with him. In situation number two, HatSideways couldn't be any more wrong about "You're just mad cause I got all the chips". Everyone at the table is actually happy as hell he got the chips (except BigBlind, of course!) Cause we know that HatSideways will continue playing stupid, and we'll all have chances to bleed him and/or double up through him. It would have been a disaster for us if BigBlind's AA held up and he won. We would've been looking at big stack play early. All at the table aren't happy that MrEveryhand took a big risk with our tournament lives by taking a chance of making BigBlind a huge chip stack.

What's the point of my rant? The problem with donkeys isn't that they make bad plays, in and of the plays themselves. It's that they take ridiculous risks in games (tourneys and SnGs) where their donkey business impacts tremendously the other players.

If you are going to pony-up the money to play in a tourney or SnG, you've got a responsibility to play responsibly.

[donut]

I had wanted to join you all last eve, but fate interviened...
Thank goodness for fate, I've had enough of "A" donkey this month...
Hope you made out Ok....

[jnewmanco1]

Yes. What was the final outcome on situation A? Did you make it to the second tourney?

[Bruno]

jnewmanco1 said:

What was the final outcome on situation A? Did you make it to the second tourney?

Yes, I ended up making the final two, and won my way into the final tourney. MrEveryhand called all-in on the river for about 5bb (his remaining stack) against the BigStack, with nothing but an Ace High flush draw that didn't get there. Big Stack had two pair.

Final is today at 1:00....You can still buy in for $150 if you want. Contact Dominic at [email protected] or 303-588-8848/303-650-0099. Event is in Thornton.

Bruno

[jnewmanco1]

I'd like to but I have my game starting at 5:00. Just curious though, this $150 buy-in today, if you win, gets a seat in some $1000 WSOP sattelite in Vegas? Good luck tonight.

[Oz]

I hear where you're coming from, Bruno. But I do agree with mister 42o: he paid his entry fee and can play any way he likes. As long as he's an equal opportunity idiot, we have no grounds to complain. I just put it in the same category as "stupid players = good game". I know I'll get my fair share in the long run. There are quite a few areas where other players stupidity affect you; tourneys are just the largest and most obvious example.

One exercise I like to do when I get pissed off by someone's play is to objectively analyze it; really see if they made a mistake and how much of one (I'm frequently amazed to find out that they aren't as bad as I think they are). In the case of mister 42o, by my count, there were 8.5 bb's in the pot when he had to call 5, so he was getting 8.5:5 or 1.7:1. With 42 vs AT, he was about a 2:1 dog. So, objectively, the call was -EV, but not hugely so. And if the short stack was as good as you say he was, I think that you can make a case that the -15% EV that the bad player was giving up may have been worth it for the chance to knock a great player out.

I realize that none of this went through mister 42o's head, but this was the reality of the situation. Just as cash games are about the long term, so are tourneys. Bad play will bring profits to the skilled players in the end.

-Oz-

[znamenacek]

Oz,

True, had MrEveryhand known the good player had AT, this was not a horrible play. However, even though the good player was shortstacked, AT was probably near the very bottom end of the range of hands that the good player would make this play with. He could have made the same play with a pocket pair, in which case he would have been a much larger favorite. All things considered, when you go all in with 4-2o you will NEVER have the best of it. At BEST you are a small dog, and at worst a huge one.

[Oz]

True, had MrEveryhand known the good player had AT, this was not a horrible play. However, even though the good player was shortstacked, AT was probably near the very bottom end of the range of hands that the good player would make this play with. He could have made the same play with a pocket pair, in which case he would have been a much larger favorite. All things considered, when you go all in with 4-2o you will NEVER have the best of it. At BEST you are a small dog, and at worst a huge one.

znamenacek (how do you pronounce that, anyway :) ) -

I don't disagree with anything you've said here. I just think you missed my point entirely. I think by any measure, against the range of hands he was probably against, the play was pretty horrible. My point was to show that, against the actual hand, it was bad but not hugely bad.

As I stated, I don't think MrEveryhand put much thought into it at all, let alone the analysis I gave. The whole exercise was to show that, sometimes, horrible decisions don't turn out to be so bad, and that the reasons the games are profitable (even and especially tourneys) is because we have players like this in them.

But the overall point was that I was disagreeing with Bruno that players have a responsiblilty to play well, because their actions affect the other players. I think anyone who ponies up the buyin can play however they'd like. It's up to the skilled players to adapt and take their stack.

-Oz-

[Bruno]

Oz said:

But the overall point was that I was disagreeing with Bruno that players have a responsiblilty to play well, because their actions affect the other players. I think anyone who ponies up the buyin can play however they'd like.

I understand where you are coming from Oz but, it's just not that simple. You can't "ponie up the buyin" and dump your money to a buddy when you get short stacked. You shouldn't bet at a dry pot without a hand, in the money or on the bubble. You can't slow play a friend. You can't fold in the BB when you are a BigStack for 1/2 a bet more to a small stack all-in, no matter what you have. Every single one of these things I've seen in the past three months in local tourneys. And every single one I've questioned. And every single time I was told a variation of "it's my chips/money, I'll do what I want!".

I won't put up with that. I'll come at those people with both barrells loaded and firing when I get that answere. And I suspect you would too....

If someone is uneducated about what happened, I'll understand that, and I'll offer whatever knowledge I have to them. As I've said before, I'll give anyone with a good attitude who is serious about learning the game any information I have, free. Be a donkey....you get the other side.

[Oz]

I understand where you are coming from Oz but, it's just not that simple. You can't "ponie up the buyin" and dump your money to a buddy when you get short stacked. You can't slow play a friend.

Agreed, paying the buyin doesn't give you the right to collude.

You shouldn't bet at a dry pot without a hand, in the money or on the bubble.

I don't have a problem with this in general, as long as it's not active colluding for a friend. There are many, many people that misunderstand what I call the Implicit Collusion strategy (just checking it down when a player is all in). I'll write an essay about it and post it in the strategy section.

You can't fold in the BB when you are a BigStack for 1/2 a bet more to a small stack all-in, no matter what you have.

Correct strategy dictates the call, but again, as long as it's not collusion, I don't have a huge problem with it. I have been the benenfactor of these bad plays many times, most recently 2 weeks ago.

But the overarching issue is, why are you so passionate about bad players making mistakes, Bruno? Yes, collusion hurts everyone in a tourney. It should be against the rules and actively punished. But the vast majority of these situations arise from ignorance. Not knowing the correct strategy is money in your stack, even if it occasionally goes against you (somewhat akin to getting it in with way the best of it and getting sucked out on). I humbly suggest you reorient your thinking from denegrating these players to celebrating them. They are why we can make so much money playing our favorite pasttime.

-Oz-