Best Tourney structure and rules??

[Neilsco]

Hey all,

Wanted to start a thread to see what everyone thought the best tourney structure for a home game should include?

Just wanted to pick your brains and see what the best buy ins, starting chip count, blinds, antes, rounds and payout structure you guys think are good.

Think small tourney 10-20 people.

Also I know general rules, but if anybody has had something wierd come up, could you throw that in also. The thought is we can use this thread to help others (ok, ok its me :oops: ) set up and run great tourneys that we can all enjoy.

Thanks for the help and input.

[Stryker]

I personally like buy-ins (for a home game) of about 20-50. Any higher than that, generally I am reluctant to play...unless I have already played with the host before.

Anything weird? I have seen a lot of weird things come up. Just know the rules I would say...or be willing to find out in the case of a dispute. NEVER put the dispute to a table vote. Maybe ask a couple other people to help out, be willing to help decide disputes (and you want at least one anyway if you play and are involved in a dispute).

Just my input...

[tjholdem]

Totally agree with Stryker: 20-50 buy in is just about right for the average home game. Additionally, knowing the rules is probably the most important part. Don't want to have disagreements that you can not back up.

[Stryker]

The only other thing I can add is that I LOVE it when I go to a home game and there is a designated dealer. Not having to worry about that part of it really makes playing easier AND more fun...

[Neilsco]

I don't think the designated dealer will be a problem, I don't mind dealing as long as I can still play.

The structure I was looking at using was a $25 buy in everybody starts with $1000 in chips. 20 minute rounds with blinds starting at 5-10, 10-20,20-40, 50-100, 100-200 (ante 50), 200-400 (ante 100), 400-800 (ante 200), 1000-2000 (ante 500).

Does this schedule seem too aggressive or not enough?

Also the payout would be 70-30 for a 10 player tourney, 60-30-10 for 16 or above (max 20).

The only weird things I've really seen (other than the usual my kicker out kicks your kicker when the best hand is on the board) is folding when the option to check is available. Had a guy the other night fold on the blind and the dealer gave him his cards back as they didn't hit the muck pile, several players in the hand. One person began to object, but didn't push it and I know the dealer felt sort of bad but luckily the guy did fold on the flop. If he had won there would have been problems. So it would seem to me if you muck your hand, its mucked, maybe after the hand we can instruct you on the fine art of checking and seeing free cards.

The other situation also involved mucking the cards, or not meaning to muck the cards as the case would be. Player threw his supposedly winning hand up in the air with the intention of have them land on the board for all to see, however they flipped in mid air and landed face down and slid into the muck pile. Lessoned learned, lay winning cards softly and gently face up in front of the dealer and let him declare the winner. If a hand hits the muck pile its lost to the poker gods forever and banned to the rail talk about the one that got away.

Let me know if the above format is OK, and if there are any other situations to know about.

Thanks :D

[Stryker]

Yeah, that's something the dealer should NOT do. It's no business of the dealer (or the host) what the player does with his cards.

The only exceptions would be acting out of turn, or not raising the minimum required based on the blinds.

As far as dealing, I can deal...if a dealer is also a player, than we can just take turns. Maybe after you (or another volunteer) is out of the tourney they can be the designated dealer. Just a thought...

[mark403]

I agree, if a player mucks his cards, either by mistake or on purpose, they are mucked. Even if he is the big blind and was not paying attention and mucks, they stay in the muck.

Your structure sounds good, let us know when you have a game!

[Rick]

1 rule you really want to make sure you make clear, that is if you use it.

THE CARDS SPEAK

New players especially don't see the flush, boat, etc and some players will take advantage of that in a heartbeat. No matter what hand a player SAYS they have, if they have better, the cards play, not what is called.

[mark403]

Rick makes a very good point, more arguments have occured over this rule, which is a standard rule in Texas Holdem. Would not hurt to announce it at the begining of your tourny.

[Stryker]

Definetely agree with this one. I feel as though I am an expert on reading hands well, yet have had another hand fall into my lap through a back door.

[tjholdem]

Make sure that you have more than two colors of chips...spend last night playing in a game with only 25s and 50s, It took way too long just counting chips to make bets. It was nuts.

[Stryker]

Good call TJ. Never really thought about that, but I totally agree with it...

[Neilsco]

Make sure that you have more than two colors of chips....

I have on order 350 whites, 350 reds, 200 green, 150 blue, 100 black.
Denominations are 1$, 5$, 25$, 50$, 100$.

I think that will be enough. :?

Based on your input I am working on finalizing how I will run the game. I'll let everybody know when the game will be up and running and start taking questions. :P

[idh78]

Make sure that you have more than two colors of chips....

I have on order 350 whites, 350 reds, 200 green, 150 blue, 100 black.
Denominations are 1$, 5$, 25$, 50$, 100$.

I think that will be enough. :?

Based on your input I am working on finalizing how I will run the game. I'll let everybody know when the game will be up and running and start taking questions. :P

ever get this one going?

[tjholdem]

ever get this one going?

Yes, idh78, Neilsco is up and going...and in good form I might add.

[Oz]

As a poker tournament "expert", I've been running a few of these lately for friends and charity events. When deciding on a structure, the main variables are: expected number of players, number and denomination of chips (be sure to have enough for coloring up later in the tourney) and how long you want it to last.

To build the structure, multiply the number of players by the starting stacks. This is the total in play. If the final blinds are 5% and 10% of this number, you can pretty much guarantee that you will finish on time, and very likely the round before. Then work backwards from these blinds, depending on the number of rounds you have to work with.

As an example, last weekend I ran a tourney for my brother and a bunch of his friends up in Cheyenne. There were 10 guys, they had enough chips to start with 3000 each, and they wanted the tourney to last 3 hours. With 30K in chips, the final blinds would be 1500-3000. I decided to raise the blinds every 15 minutes, so we had 12 rounds. This is the structure I came up with:


Round Small Big

1 10 20
2 15 25
3 25 50 Race off 5's
4 50 100
5 75 150
6 100 200
7 150 300
8 200 400 Race off 25's
9 300 600
10 400 800
11 800 1500
12 1500 3000



Try to leave the large doubling of the blinds to the end of the tourney when there are fewer players. That gives the majority a lot more play for their stack.

The initial stacks were 10x5(red), 10x25(green), 7x100(black), 4x500(yellow). During round 11, I started coloring up the 100's to 500's in the bigger stacks to keep the number of chips manageable. During the races, I used the TDA rules that guarantee fairness, but not a windfall.

-Oz-

[tjholdem]

Oz:

What is your recommended payout percentages, and how many places??? I like to pay out 3-4 places, depending on how many players we have, but, what amounts would you suggest?

[r]

I ran alot of golf tournaments and we used to pay 25% of the field. Hope this helps :D

[tjholdem]

I ran alot of golf tournaments and we used to pay 25% of the field. Hope this helps :D

But at what amounts....last pay position we usually give buy-in back. From there what are good amounts.

4th = buy in
3rd = double buy in
2nd = 30-40% of remainder
1st = 60-70% of remaider

That is what we usually do, but then 2nd and third place are only 15-18.00 different. It just doesn't make sense.

I think there needs to be a better schedule.

I know that in my home, I make the rules....but I want a set payment schedule that is fair to those playing.

[idh78]

Oz:

What is your recommended payout percentages, and how many places??? I like to pay out 3-4 places, depending on how many players we have, but, what amounts would you suggest?

I'm no expert by any means but I think 50-30-20 works well for 10-19, and maybe 50-30-15-5 for 20+ where at 20 people 4th gets their money back...

Many people like to have many spots paid out, where others want 70% or more going to the winner, I think personally that is too much to the winner, especially if the blinds are such that it comes down to all-in luck rather than good play near the end that determines 1st-4th often times...

I know I have played in a couple around town that have been 50-60 people and only paid 4 spots, where as a 30 person tourney I played in Vegas paid the top 6....

It all boils down to a matter of preference...while the winner should be rewarded, they aren't the only one to play well usually....fact is no matter how well you play you have to get lucky to win most tournaments, or should I say avoid being unlucky.....this is why I still prefer a good ol fashion ring game....tourneys are fun, but best when followed with a cash game...

[r]

I do have a schedule but I will have to dig it out.

[tjholdem]

Oz:

What is your recommended payout percentages, and how many places??? I like to pay out 3-4 places, depending on how many players we have, but, what amounts would you suggest?

I'm no expert by any means but I think 50-30-20 works well for 10-19, and maybe 50-30-15-5 for 20+ where at 20 people 4th gets their money back...

Many people like to have many spots paid out, where others want 70% or more going to the winner, I think personally that is too much to the winner, especially if the blinds are such that it comes down to all-in luck rather than good play near the end that determines 1st-4th often times...

I know I have played in a couple around town that have been 50-60 people and only paid for spots, where as a 30 person tourney I played in Vegas paid the top 6....

It all boils down to a matter of preference..

Thanks for the input. Let me know what you find Russ.

[idh78]

I ran alot of golf tournaments and we used to pay 25% of the field. Hope this helps :D



That is what we usually do, but then 2nd and third place are only 15-18.00 different. It just doesn't make sense.

What type of buy in are we talking here?

If it's small, like say $25 or less, you should probably pay no more than three spots....unless you have like three tables...

at 16 x $25 = $400 prize pool

$200 1st
$120 2nd
$80 3rd

or even

$200
$100
$75
$25 would be fair..

[idh78]

I think the biggest jump should be 1st to 2nd, if second and third are are fairly close $$$ wise that's fine, it will speed up the game in the end a little anyway....

[r]

I believe for a 20 player $20 percentages would be.
Purse $400

1st 50% $200
2nd 25% $100
3rd 15% $60
4th 10% $40

$50 entry 20 players, purse $1000

1st 50% $500
2nd 25% $250
3rd 15% $150
4th 10% $100

If the blinds get to high at the end and it is a luck all in fest I would probably go with 40/35 with 1st and 2nd. But if you want to promote poker strength I would leave it like it is provided the format supports it.

[idh78]

I believe for a 20 player $20 percentages would be.
Purse $400

1st 50% $200
2nd 25% $100
3rd 15% $60
4th 10% $40

$50 entry 20 players, purse $1000

1st 50% $500
2nd 25% $250
3rd 15% $150
4th 10% $100

If the blinds get to high at the end and it is a luck all in fest I would probably go with 40/35 with 1st and 2nd. But if you want to promote poker strength I would leave it like it is provided the format supports it.

50/25/15/10 works well with 20 people....

[Oz]

Oz:

What is your recommended payout percentages, and how many places??? I like to pay out 3-4 places, depending on how many players we have, but, what amounts would you suggest?

It all depends on what the players expect. One group I play with (usually 8-10 in the tourney) believe it should be winner take all, but there is quite often a deal made at 2 or 3 left. And usually the players knocked out want a deal too so we can play another one. :)

Experienced players are pretty comfortable with paying out 8-15% of the field for larger multitable tourneys. For home games with inexperienced players I like to flatten the pay outs similarly to what's already been suggested. In the tourney last weekend, we had 10 players, $20 buy in, 3 places payed: 100-60-40, like an on-line sit-n-go.

-Oz-

[Neilsco]

Make sure that you have more than two colors of chips....

I have on order 350 whites, 350 reds, 200 green, 150 blue, 100 black.
Denominations are 1$, 5$, 25$, 50$, 100$.

I think that will be enough. :?

Based on your input I am working on finalizing how I will run the game. I'll let everybody know when the game will be up and running and start taking questions. :P

ever get this one going?

Yeah I've got all my stuff together and am ready to start hosting. I'll probably go for another couples tourney in a couple of weekends. Probably Sat the 15th. I'll have to poll the group that wants in and see if the couples should be an afternoon tourney followed by a bigger tourney and cash game or hold the couples night and big tourney on seperate nights.

[tjholdem]

Yeah I've got all my stuff together and am ready to start hosting. I'll probably go for another couples tourney in a couple of weekends. Probably Sat the 15th. I'll have to poll the group that wants in and see if the couples should be an afternoon tourney followed by a bigger tourney and cash game or hold the couples night and big tourney on seperate nights.

Sounds good Neilsco. earlier in the day will make it difficult for the wife and I as our weekends are pretty full with visitations.

[tjholdem]

Thanks for all of the input. Usually, our games are 25 buy in with a 10 rebuy. anywhere from 10-20 players. Some games will be 50 buy in with 25 rebuy. all rebuys must be completed prior to the end of the first hour.

[Wetdog]

Sounds good Neilsco. earlier in the day will make it difficult for the wife and I as our weekends are pretty full with visitations.

Maybe we should have the real money tourney early in the day. That way tj would avoid the shame.

No really, tj does very important work and I for one appreciate it.

That said, let's celebrate my birthday with a Wetdog of Mass Destruction Fest that evening.

[tjholdem]

Maybe we should have the real money tourney early in the day. That way tj would avoid the shame.

No really, tj does very important work and I for one appreciate it.

That said, let's celebrate my birthday with a Wetdog of Mass Destruction Fest that evening.

Avoid the Shame....sometimes I view it as giving to charity.. :17: Celebrate your birthday.....Oh,man...can you handle another celebration so early in the year!!!!! I'm still trying to recover from the last two weeks!! :oops: