Free Bar Poker!!!

[ThePokerTour]

Free bar poker. There are a great many of you who have some very different opinions about the :donk: play that comes with free bar poker. My opinion is that it offers a great opportunity to learn the game, have a great night out, develop your skills at reading people, etc...

It is free for the bar customers to play, but is it really free? The answer is, NO. It is not free. It cost the bar owners to have all the different bar poker tournament companies to be in their bars. The Bobby Boucher's (Waterboy) of the world, or those of you that only order soda and expect a free ride, will eventually ruin poker in bars and restaurants. I actually heard a story from one of my players tonight that absolutely blew me away. A player came up to me and told me of this one player that consistently comes into the bar to play poker, orders a water, pours several packs of sugar into it and asks for several slices of lemons or limes and makes his own lemonade/limeade...and he doesn't even tip the waitress. Are you kidding me!!!! How pathetic.

It is stuff like this that will drown the free bar poker. Folks, those of you that play bar poker, please remember that it costs your local bars/restaurants to have us in there providing you a poker tournament. Order more than a soda, water, or lemonade. Order dinner every once in awhile, a beer or two, maybe a shot every now and then. If not, free poker maybe a thing of the past. What a shame that would be if that were to come about.

I know that Brian Masters and the Denver Poker Tour has sent people to the World Series of Poker, I have people there as well and these people that guys like Brian and I are sending are actually cashing out in these events. Folks, where else can you play poker for 'free' and actually make it to the World Series of Poker? I am not talking about satellite events. I am talking about actual bracelet events. So, support your local bars and your favorite free bar poker company will continue to provide you with an enjoyable tournament night after night.

For those of you that support your local bars/restaurants that host free bar poker, this is not addressed to you. The Bobby Boucher's of the world know exactly who this is addressed to.

[Wetdog]

I never understood why bars and servers would bring free water to someone. They could/should sell bottles of H2O for a couple of bucks to discourage the freeloaders. I've actually heard people whining about being charged for the convenience of having their whims catered to.

[dexman1349]

I've tried to follow a two drink minimum when I play and tip a minimum of $1 per drink. I'll get the first drink when I walk in the door (usually 30-45 minutes before the cards are dealt), and try to get the second drink shortly before the 1hour break.

If I can last at least until the 2 hour mark, then I'll order a third drink. I used to order food before the game started, but it's way too overpriced for what you get. I have a hard time justifying paying $20-25 for two beers and a plate of nacho's (even at a sporting event).

[DenverPokerTour]

Great letter Rico. Well done.

Many people still insist that Free poker is just that, FREE. At any time do the Bobby Bouchers' of the world just go into an establishment an sit own for 4 hours and not eat or drink anything? Then why do they do it on poker nights?
It is just plain rude. And trust me, the bar / restaurants don't won't that person in their location. Some people just can't take a hint.

Brian Masters
Denver Poker Tour

[Mondogarage]

"It is free for the bar customers to play, but is it really free? The answer is, NO. It is not free. It cost the bar owners to have all the different bar poker tournament companies to be in their bars."

Not necessarily. The Bit, in Longmont, runs all their games in house, with 4-6 tables per night 5-6 days per week, and not paying a company to run it. The Opera House game in Longmont also runs 2x a week without having to pay a company, though unlike the Bit, it's self-deal. But in neither case does it cost the bar anything to run a well attended bar poker game.

What will ultimately kill bar poker (if it ever goes away, which seems highly unlikely) will be too much bar poker. Too many games in too many venues on the same nights, such that some venues struggle to get more than one table. And that won't even kill bar poker, it will just kill the market of tours adding venues. Which, in the end, is the only way the tours' business will grow. However, there really is a difference between "killing" the growth of a tour, versus bar poker suddenly becoming unavailable to play.

"Folks, where else can you play poker for 'free' and actually make it to the World Series of Poker?"

There's a few of dem dere intraweb thingies, but I digress. The World Series seat thing, while nice, will in no way apply to 98-99% of the people playing free bar poker. It just won't, and any $$$ spent by the tour to sponsor 2-3 players to a $1500 buyin at the WSOP should not matter to the other 98-99% of players to whom that prize will never be awarded, and shouldn't be used as justification to get them to try to spend more money. However, the nightly prizes are certainly a draw and attraction --- you can sell the patrons on...ahem...increasing their patronage by focusing on the value of all these bar tabs and such.

The above notwithstanding, Bobby Boucher can suck my ass for being such a nit. Your lemonade-boy made me spit coffee. The venue is probably perfectly within their rights to boot him out.

As for myself, the amount of $$$ I spend is directly in proportion to how the game at that venue is run. If I have to sit and wait an inordinate amount of time because the tour decides to run less tables than originally planned -- that's not a reason for me to spend more money and reward the bar for hosting an inefficient tour. If the game is well run, then the patronage should reflect that and support that game/venue. If not -- there's enough competition out there (see above) to where the players will go and spend money where the game is well-run.

[Leopard Wrasse]

Rico,

So are you saying that your not wanted at The Poker Tour if you only order sodas, what if you don't drink alcohol. If that's the case let me know and I'll find somewhere else to play.

Robert Pershing

[coloradomrg]

Any bar owner/manager that says they dont' make $$ on sodas is a liar. It costs nearly nothing per glass, and they typically charge atleast a buck each. They may wish they made more $$ on the games, but that's up to them to market themselves.

As for water, that's the bar's problem for allowing tap water to be served, not the patrons. If I ask for a water and they tell me $2 and give me a bottle, so be it. But if they are offering tap water, I'll usually take it.

Lemonade boy? Let the bar owner kick him out. Hell, I've been asked to leave a fast food place because I got my food next door and all my buddies were eating there. Makes perfect sense to me. Can't bring food into a restaurant, and I sure as hell can't go cook my own meal. Why should the owner allow someone to make their own drink? Thats the bar owner being a wuss, and not my problem.

This kind of ranting is what drives people away, you are sure as heck not going to gain patrons at your games this way. THE BAR NOT MAKING $$ IS THE BARS PROBLEM, the BAR needs to fix it.

[Wetdog]

This kind of ranting is what drives people away, you are sure as heck not going to gain patrons at your games this way. THE BAR NOT MAKING $$ IS THE BARS PROBLEM, the BAR needs to fix it. http://www.denverpoker.com/forums/images/poker/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.denverpoker.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=11036)

Exactly. Another problem bars have is lack of wait staff for the crowd they bring in. I was in a tourney that had 10 tables and they only had one server for the whole crowd.

[dexman1349]

This kind of ranting is what drives people away, you are sure as heck not going to gain patrons at your games this way. THE BAR NOT MAKING $$ IS THE BARS PROBLEM, the BAR needs to fix it.

I agree with you to a point. The bar is going to look at which aspect is not profitable and address it. The bar will look at how much it costs to have the tour there, how much the additional patrons contribute (or cost), and look at the ultimate bottom line. If they feel that there are too many lemonade makers sitting at the poker table, the poker table will be removed, not the lemonade drinkers.

I have seen several bars change to a $1 charge for sodas or tap water. Everytime that particular bar chooses to do that, the water drinking poker players slowly stop showing up. Then fewer poker tables are needed (sometimes to the point they can't sit enough for 1 table). The $1 charge also affects the non-poker playing crowd (think of the designated driver).

Rico is not saying that if you want to play you must get drunk, or even that you have to buy alcoholic drinks. He's simply stating that if we want to play, we (as players) need to help support the bar so they will invite us back to play.

Don't most bars have a food menu? What about a juke box/ music player? How about a game of pool before or after the tourney? Alot of bars also have some kind of video gaming (one place I've played at even had "Guitar Hero" contests). There are even a few bars that sell t-shirts, hats, etc. My point (and Rico would agree) is that there are several ways to support a bar without even thinking about alcohol.

The bar will never "donate" profits for poker, no matter how much we like to play the game.

Edit: Bar poker is never free, even if it is all in house. The table came from somewhere. Sure it's a relatively small up-front cost, but it wasn't free nor is it's maintenance. Bar poker tables seem to get torn up relatively quickly in the bar environment. The chips and cards aren't free either. I wouldn't be suprised if a bar goes through a dozen decks of cards a month (at least one deck per table per week). Those in-house bars probably need to increase staff on game nights as well. Do you want to play in a 10 table venue with only 1 bartender?

[Mondogarage]

Edit: Bar poker is never free, even if it is all in house. The table came from somewhere. Sure it's a relatively small up-front cost, but it wasn't free nor is it's maintenance. Bar poker tables seem to get torn up relatively quickly in the bar environment. The chips and cards aren't free either. I wouldn't be suprised if a bar goes through a dozen decks of cards a month (at least one deck per table per week). Those in-house bars probably need to increase staff on game nights as well. Do you want to play in a 10 table venue with only 1 bartender?

I do not mean to imply that it's free for the bar to run. My point is that an in house run game can be a good investment for a bar that is willing to put in the money and work it takes to make it happen. When you're running 4-6 tables a night without having to pay a tour to do so, that $200-300/night you're not paying sure will cover a lot of your other recurring expenses (cards, table maintenance, etc.)

I'm sorry I'm going back to describing the Bit, but it's consistently the best run bar poker game I've ever been to. They've just added two more nights, in fact. They don't increase staff (because they usually have 2-3 waitresses and a bartender), the dealers are paid in drinks and tips (in other words, the Bit doesn't pay them), they pay one person to run the game on a given night, and the tables are of a nice quality.

They don't increase staff on game nights, because just about every night there is a game night. I have no idea how many decks they go through. The chips are pretty ancient and not of a very heavy weight.

That said, if service was slow, or drinks were overpriced, etc., the patrons wouldn't spend the money there, and the venue would cut back. As it is, they've been so successful with poker that other things have been pushed aside to add more nights. They also do not serve tap water, and sell their bottled water. There's a handful of nits there, but I routinely see 20+ people ordering dinner.

Maybe the bars that are struggling with their poker nights just serve crappy/non-existent food?

[Leopard Wrasse]

Maybe the bars that are struggling with their poker nights just serve crappy/non-existent food?


That's a major issue with the venues in the Springs.

[Leopard Wrasse]

Aside from the All American, which has pretty good food.

[coloradomrg]

Drive out to 'Frankies II' Leopard. They have great food (with good prices), friendly staff, and usually a quality game. They are at Woodmen and Meridian Rd.

[DenverPokerTour]

I played at Grand Slam on Arapahoe last night. Steak sandwhich and fries were pretty good. Good price too. Pitcher of beer was $6.50. Good crowd, I got knocked out early but stuck around and won the conso table,and kept my own bounty cert. Thank goodness, I needed to get into next months event.


Brian

[Mondogarage]

I'm planning on playing at TJ's Wash Park Lounge tonight, and if I get to sit down at 7pm, I plan on seeing if the enciladas there are any good. :)

If the waiting list is too long, I'll just go over to 3 Kings and play some pinball, instead. But since I'm in town for bands, what the hell...may as well try to get my 2nd cert in my 3rd attempt. ;)

[ThePokerTour]

Rico,

So are you saying that your not wanted at The Poker Tour if you only order sodas, what if you don't drink alcohol. If that's the case let me know and I'll find somewhere else to play.

Robert Pershing

Mr. Pershing, if you are the Bobby Boucher's of the free bar poker world, then yes, you are not wanted. This is a business not only for me and my company, but for the bars that have us as well. To quote one of my bar owners, you are the most expensive thing in a bar, an empty chair. Mr. Pershing, you will not be missed, trust me.

[coloradomrg]

Good one Rico.... hope you treat YOUR customers (the bars) better... cause if the BARS don't treat their patrons better than that, it won't matter how many tables or games they can run, because their patrons will go down the street to a bar that does treat them well. Good luck with your game, your going to need it.

I've recently quit drinking, but still enjoy poker. I'll be damned if I'll go have a beer or other alcoholic drink for the sake of a poker game. And the bars can kiss my butt if they think I'll pay a friggin penny for craptastic food. If the bar wants to charge for the soda because I'm playin in the poker game, so be it. If they want to hire a real cook and provide good food, then I'll buy it.

I'm not a cheap guy. I tip well and often. I do not however believe in paying for something that sucks, or encouraging poor manners/business by supporting businesses that don't care about me.

[ThePokerTour]

Webster defines "patron" as "a person...who sponsors and supports some person, activity, institution, etc, a regular customer." "Sponsors and SUPPORTS." You and all other water and soda drinkers are not "patrons," as Webster defines one. Trust me, I treat my "patrons" just fine. Just ask them. To be quite honest, I could care less about empty seats. So, choose your words carefully before you post a reply. And trust me, the bar owners do not want empty seats in their bars.

[crimson0152]

That was an absolutely uncalled for response, Rico. I've been attending Poker Tour events for well over a year, 1-3 times a week, and now I think I may have to patronize bars where some other company is hosting poker if your attitude doesn't change. Quite a few of us don't drink, but we will pay for other things at the poker bars. I happen to have eaten at the bar, with Mr. Pershing, prior to the poker games, on several occasions. If the bar wants more money out of me (and I have dropped quite a bit of money at many of these bars) then they can provide something I want to buy. Some do, some don't. Recently, the quality of your tour's games has seriously fallen off, chasing some of the regulars out of these bars you want us to patronize. So maybe you ought to look in the mirror and maybe you ought to pay your dealers what you owe them so that they will come to the games!

[coloradomrg]

So, choose your words carefully before you post a reply.

I agree, you never know who you might be talking to. And online, it's not only who you are talking to, but who else might read it. Word of mouth can be a blessing or a curse....

[dexman1349]

I agree, you never know who you might be talking to. And online, it's not only who you are talking to, but who else might read it. Word of mouth can be a blessing or a curse....

So very true. Several quotes from the Westword article a while back came from this web-site (I know because one of the quotes was mine).

I can see both sides of this argument. A water drinking person in a bar is considered worse than an empty seat. They create more work for the employees without generating any addional money for the bar.

However, that water drinking person rarely comes to the bar alone. They will bring a friend or two along who probably will purchase something.

Both Rico and the Bars are in business for one thing: money. Plain and simple. How they choose to make money is up to them. How they address their "patrons" is another story. I don't care much for how Rico is choosing to handle this within this forum, but I can see where his frustration stems from. He is seeing venues close their doors to him because there are too many water drinkers.

No matter how you feel about it, the bars will group all poker players together. If there are only 2-3 paying customers at a particular table, the bar will consider that ENTIRE table a burdon and will eliminate it.

[ThePokerTour]

I know of several players that just don't drink beer, wine or alcohol. I appreciate & totally respect that. My whole issue and the reason I posted this thread was because that particular night I was told by a manager at one of my bigger venues that they were seriously considering quiting poker because of the many water/soda drinkers. Then I was told of the guy who orders a glass of water, asks for several limes/lemons then makes his own lemonade and never even tips the waitress for her work in helping him make his own lemonade. I was venting and figured this was a good place to post my opinion. This is not an account that I wish to lose. This thread is not meant for them.

I was posting this thread to those who are truly an 'empty seat' period!! Not to those that patronize the bar in other ways (i.e. bringing friends that drink, ordering dinners, play pool before and after the poker tournament, or those that had too much to drink the night before & spent too much money and just want to take a night off from spending any money, but wants to play poker). It is to those who truly are empty seats and only them. If I am one who doesn't drink or eat bar food, but I sit at a video machine while I am waiting for my name to be called and spend $4.00 in video play (I have quite a few players that do) then I have done my part as a player to support, patronize my local bar. Because that is what the average amount spent is to support a nightly tournament.

I am sorry if I ruffled feathers of those who aren't always spending money, this thread wasn't meant for you. What I am not sorry for is for who this thread was intended for, an empty seat. I will always feel this way and never apologize for it. I understand that it is the nature of the beast, a necessary evil. I just needed to vent.

Hope to see you at the tables

[takeittothehouse]

Mr. Pershing, if you are the Bobby Boucher's of the free bar poker world, then yes, you are not wanted. This is a business not only for me and my company, but for the bars that have us as well. To quote one of my bar owners, you are the most expensive thing in a bar, an empty chair. Mr. Pershing, you will not be missed, trust me.

After reading this thread I am absolutely appalled at the attitudes of the free bar poker tour owners that posted here. You state that you offer completely free bar poker. COMPLETELY FREE.

Yes, the bars need to make money to host games because it is not free to host the games. But you come in here, a public forum, and post that you don’t want players that don’t spend money at the establishments. You come on here, a public forum, and state that your game is NOT free to play.

Instead of coming on here and whining, why don’t you work with the establishments to implement ideas to bring in more revenue? Put up signs that say no loitering - if someone is not being a “patron”, you can ask them to leave (even though the profit on a soda is astronomical). Only sell bottled water – no tap water. A case of bottled water is what…five dollars? Sell them each for $2 and there’s profit you didn’t have before. Offer good food at reasonable prices.

But coming on here and venting and basically saying that your game is NOT free to play is a bunch of crap.

[ThePokerTour]

You miss the point. My original frustration was with the guy asking for water, limes/lemons and using the table sugar packs to make his own limeade/lemonade. I believe that I have stated just that. This thread is not meant for you who patronize your local bar, but to those who make their own lemonade at the bars expense.

I agree with you that sometimes it is the bars own fault. At one of my venues the soda/water machine is open. Anyone can come up and serve themselves. The water/soda drinkers take the liberty of coming up to this machine and serving themselves. I have talked to the owners about this because in essence it is stealing. I told these bar owners to kick them out of their bars. It's not my bar, it's theirs. I have told all of my bar owners not to give free refills and to charge for bottled water.

The bottom line to my original point is that bar owners/managers have to give an account to the money that is being spent to bring in a type of entertainment that will bring in revenue. The more that people continue to occupy a seat and do nothing but order water/soda you will eventually see free bar poker fade away. Obviously I have hit a button here. That was not my intention. I simply wanted to make a point and to hit the Bobby Boucher's out there. They are the ones that will be our demise.

[pseudoswede]

I was told by a manager at one of my bigger venues that they were seriously considering quiting poker because of the many water/soda drinkers. Then I was told of the guy who orders a glass of water, asks for several limes/lemons then makes his own lemonade and never even tips the waitress for her work in helping him make his own lemonade.

I think it's been said before, but the manager should be the one kicking that freeloader out of his/her bar. He's essentially loitering.

[idh78]

<-----likes to drink...a lot...

I fully understand that some people don't drink alcohol...I've tried it, but it didn't take....kinda boring for me...

none of this really applies to me, as I don't really go to bars unless my goal is to consume alcohol/food/have a good time....I know going into it that it costs money...anyone who thinks "free" poker should be totally free is looking a gift horse in the mouth. basically I think that the bar is paying for a service you are using...the least you can do is do your part to keep it running if it is something you enjoy....otherwise might as well go up the hill or to one of the clubs around town...at least with bar poker you control what you spend in tips/food/beverages rather than have $4-$5 taken out of every pot....


taking that into account, I really don't understand what the point of going to play poker in a bar is if you are not there to patronize the bar?? since there is no money to be won, but rather a gift card for future use.

[Mondogarage]

The bottom line to my original point is that bar owners/managers have to give an account to the money that is being spent to bring in a type of entertainment that will bring in revenue. The more that people continue to occupy a seat and do nothing but order water/soda you will eventually see free bar poker fade away. Obviously I have hit a button here. That was not my intention. I simply wanted to make a point and to hit the Bobby Boucher's out there. They are the ones that will be our demise.

And I feel you are missing pretty much everyone else's point here, and that is, if the bar is not satisfied with the level of business their poker games are bringing in, they should first be looking to themselves and asking what can they do to improve business.

I've played bar poker in plenty of venues where quite a lot of spending is going on. In fact, I can only think of one venue I've ever played at where the level of business going to the bar was visibly lacking. And yeah, that venue no longer hosts poker, but then, they never had more than two tables one night a week, and struggle on every other weeknight anyway (as such, their real problem is a general lack of ability to bring in customers).

Where I've played, I've generally seen lots of pitchers of beer flowing, a fair-to-good number of people ordering food, etc. There is not an inherent problem with empty seat players. Therefore, if the problem is only in certain bars, it is much more likely that the problem is with those bars themselves. Whether that be something as easily correctable as location of the soda machine, or deciding to only carry bottled water, or whether its something that takes a bit more actual effort by the bar, whether it's spending a bit of $$$ on advertising or investing in having a decent kitchen.

Again, where I presently play, they're in no danger of demise -- they're adding nights and adding tables, because they make more money on poker nights than they do on non-poker nights. I'm sure that's not the only venue having such a pleasant problem to deal with. But it's worth pointing out that that venue has just bought six brand new tables, has been undergoing visible renovations, etc. In other words, actually investing in their own business and not treating bar poker as the underpants gnomes would do:

1. Hire poker tour
2. ??????
3. PROFIT

It doesn't work like that.

None of the above has anything to do with your single homemade lemonade freeloader -- there's no reason that person should be allowed to come into the bar. But when you post a thread here addressing all of us, you're not just speaking about Mr. Lemonade, you're painting all of us with a rather broad brush, even if this one individual is what led you to the post.

If any of the bars face an actual demise of poker from their establishment, it's not going to be because of a couple of cheapskates. Really, for them to have tried poker in the first place indicates that what they were doing on those nights pre-poker wasn't working for them, either. The real issue here is, as a bar owner, what can I do to compete better in this marketplace.

If I'm a tour operator, the question I should be asking myself is, am I targeting the right venues, that actually have sustainable business models, or am I just trying to get into any room willing to pay me $60 (or $85, or whatever the going rate is) to bring a dealer, chips and a tabletop in the door, without regard as to whether this bar has any kind of sustainable clientele.

Venue selection is much like table selection in casino cash games -- if you don't target the opportunities more likely to result in profit, you're increasing the risk of failure.

[dexman1349]

Mondo,

very nicely put.

x2.

[ThePokerTour]

Mondo, I hear ya!!

[Saint Evil]

i haven't gone to a game without blowing at least 30$ or more, every game, and now there isn't going to be a christmas. but it beat buying presents for my damn family :D

[tjholdem]

i haven't gone to a game without blowing at least 30$ or more, every game, and now there isn't going to be a christmas. but it beat buying presents for my damn family :D

lol... that "damn family," I know exactly what you mean there. We had our yearly family and friends New Years Eve poker game last week and the "damn family" did pretty good. So, they better not b!tch about the presents I got for them...lol