More APT Shenanigans?

[Mondogarage]

So this morning, I notice the APT has pretty much sliced their prize pool for their monthly and quarterly Hold'em and Omaha cert tournaments in half, beginning immediately.

Okay, that's their prerogative, obviously.

So I visit the forums to ask why this happened, and a couple of us traded some comments. One guy was a bit rude, and a particular APT cheerleader called us babies, but all in all, the discussion was fairly civilized (if uninformative, since no one from the APT was answering questions).

Now, the board is in "maintenance mode". Which is always what seems to happen when someone questions the APT's business practices (one person in the thread started talking about lawsuits, and such.)

Is it APT's policy to always take down their forums anytime they make a decision that the player base may question or take issue with? Is it their policy to blame it on hackers, every time?

I'm just curious, it it the APT's policy to hope the player base doesn't notice these things?

Anyway, I didn't really take issue with the prize pool deal, since the APT is a for profit business and can run their affairs as they see fit. I merely wondered over there on the forums whether it was indicative of deeper financial problems on that tour, and whether or not they would refund half of VIP Gold membership fees, in light of the fact the prize pools were halved.

I do, however, take issue with the way it seems the APT tries to avoid public discussion of their practices, by taking down their forums.

What I also find funny is this statement: "We have also reduced the payout amounts for the monthly Tournaments and spread the prize money down, to payout the top 5 places, instead of the 3 places paid previously."

Until this message, the statement on their board was they were paying $100 down to all final table participants. So no, they have not spread the prize money down at all. In fact, they've reduced payout spots, at least for their quarterly tournies (I think the monthlies were still only paying out three spots, which would make the statement correct, to that extent.)

Anyway, can anyone provide further illumination with regard to these events?

[Poker Goddess]

Anyway, can anyone provide further illumination with regard to these events?

Perhaps I can shed some light on this, having worked in the Web Department of APT until yesterday.

APT has elected to pull their boards down when the conversation becomes too negative. Plain and simple, that's it. Rather than let people speak their minds and share their opinions, they have, and will continue to, direct their webmaster to pull the boards.

The truth hurts, apparently, and in my humble opinion, pulling the boards is no bandaid.

Poker Goddess

[leifabe]

It looks to me like they (APT) are scared of what people will say. They don't want to address any negative issue--just brush it under the rug. Look at the response after the Vegas debacle. They still haven't addressed that issue. I wonder if all of the cheerleaders for APT are still feeling as strongly that "it rocks". I'm sure that there are many deeper problems in the APT that still have yet to come out--let's see what happens in the upcoming weeks.


Leif

[Bruno]

I wonder if all of the cheerleaders for APT are still feeling as strongly that "it rocks".

Leif

Let the sleepling donkey sleep, Leif....

[leifabe]

I know, it was just too hard to resist.

Leif

[leifabe]

I find it amusing that just because someone posts comments about bar poker tours in this town it would imply that they have no life.

I personally have a very full life between dealing and all of the other activites I'm involved in.

If you post a comment or a remark expect to get feedback--and it won't always be positive and feel good. You have to be able to deal with both sides.

I will stand behind all of the comments I have ever made on this forum, can everybody else say the same?

Leif

[SamAdams12oz]

OK, I hear this *****ing and moaning about APT cutting prize pools down, changing payout structures, etc. Try this one out for size. In Delta (south of Grand Junction), they verbally promised a $3000 monthly tournament... Then switched that to quarterly...then bailed on the western slope before we could play for the prize pool. Can anyone tell me if we have any chance of seeing what we were promised? I know people in Denver think of us as yokels, but just because we live a more traditional existance doesn't make us complete morons. All I know is free poker is leaving a bad taste in alot of our mouths...we are simple, in the fact that if you give your word, that's equivallant to drawing up a contract and signing on the dotted line.

[Bruno]

OK, I hear this *****ing and moaning about APT cutting prize pools down, changing payout structures, etc. Try this one out for size. In Delta (south of Grand Junction), they verbally promised a $3000 monthly tournament... Then switched that to quarterly...then bailed on the western slope before we could play for the prize pool. <snip> in the fact that if you give your word, that's equivallant to drawing up a contract and signing on the dotted line.

Not in their moral makeup.....

[Mondogarage]

OK, I hear this *****ing and moaning about APT cutting prize pools down, changing payout structures, etc. Try this one out for size. In Delta (south of Grand Junction), they verbally promised a $3000 monthly tournament... Then switched that to quarterly...then bailed on the western slope before we could play for the prize pool. Can anyone tell me if we have any chance of seeing what we were promised?

According to their website, "APT is no longer offering poker games on Colorado's Western Slope." So to answer your question, no, you have absolutely no chance of playing for that particular prize pool.

I don't think APT was under any enforceable legal promise to conduct their quarterly tournament out there, but yeah, it kinda sucks to have the rug pulled from under you.

[MOEMONEY63]

Chad Mcneil was the guy in charge of all the western slope operations for APT. He recently pulled out and has decided to open up his own poker company, tour, etc..... out on the western slope. That's why all the tournaments never happened there.

[SamAdams12oz]

Chad Mcneil was the guy in charge of all the western slope operations for APT. He recently pulled out and has decided to open up his own poker company, tour, etc..... out on the western slope. That's why all the tournaments never happened there.

Sounds like you know the inner workings of the APT, so I kindly request answers to a couple of questions. Who is Chad? I was under the impression that he was one of the people that started up the APT. I heard that Hugo was the one that instigated the separation with Chad, but if it was Chad's choice-how could a company let one of their people split off and leave their customers hanging? The players in Delta are/were APT's customers after all, aren't we? Either way it went, the timing is too convenient. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

[loomisdl]

Sounds like you know the inner workings of the APT, so I kindly request answers to a couple of questions. Who is Chad? I was under the impression that he was one of the people that started up the APT. I heard that Hugo was the one that instigated the separation with Chad, but if it was Chad's choice-how could a company let one of their people split off and leave their customers hanging? The players in Delta are/were APT's customers after all, aren't we? Either way it went, the timing is too convenient. I appreciate you taking the time to respond.


APT ROCKS! No WAY THat HapPened mAn! ApT rOCks!!!

............

[Poker Goddess]

My understanding, from speaking with Chad, is that he was told APT was going to close down the western slope and that he was fired. And yes, he was one of the 'originals' that started the company, who are all no longer employed by APT. He was sent out to the western slope to open up bars, and while he was gone, his job here was given to someone else, who has no experience in the company other than playing in the games.

It is also my understanding, from speaking to Chad, that he is not only going to continue servicing the bars on the Western Slope that APT decided to drop on a moments notice, but that he will continue the tournament as it was planned to happe, with the same prize money that APT was offering.

APT doesn't care about it's players, nor it's employees.

Poker Goddess

[scrupboy]

Sounds familiar.

My mother played at one of APT's venues named Pifler's on a Thursday. The APT website showed a prize of $50 cash and $50 bar tab for first and $25/25, $15/15 for second and third respectively. When they were done, she received a $40 bar tab. She questioned them about the prizes and did not receive a straight answer. I decided to research for myself and sure enough, the prizes were shown on their website. I emailed APT and did not receive a response. I made a copy of the website and had my mom bring this with her to the venue and they tell her it's not their problem and to deal with APT. I look on their website and they have changed the prize information to be blank, so I email them again (since I know they received my email and changed their website) and receive a response. They tell me they will fix the problem and contact me to send my mother the correct prize. I don't hear anything from them for a week and email them again with no response. This was two weeks ago and she won that prize over a month ago.

I am usually pretty satisfied at these free bar games, but it is very disappointing that I cannot even get a response. Just some communication would be acceptable and perhaps a resolution to the problem. When they leave you hanging with no response and ignore your communication attempts, I personally feel cheated. I did not demand that money be reimbursed, but just asked for closure on the situation.

[dvrdave]

Maybe APT can take a lesson from DPT and cut the dealers' pay by $10 per shift. This would bring in 50k+ to their bottom line per year. They can then pay out everything they promised.

[loomisdl]

Maybe APT can take a lesson from DPT and cut the dealers' pay by $10 per shift. This would bring in 50k+ to their bottom line per year. They can then pay out everything they promised.

This is what causes dealers to assault players, then you have to go out and spend HUGE amounts of money finding a carrier that will underwrite your general liability insurance.

Also, sometimes the poker chips will attack players as well. I'm not sure how this correlates with dealer pay rates, but there might be a connection.



Seriously people, we're talking about free bar tournies. If someone promises me something and doesn't deliver I'll simply choose not to play in their events and go somewhere else. These free bar poker wars are getting old.

That being said, I haven't played in an APT or DPT event and likely won't. I'm not confident that I would want to do business with either. APT based on recent history showing evidence that the people running it don't know the ABC's of running any kind of business let alone a poker tourney operation, and DPT strictly based on Brian's posts here (although he seems toned down a bit lately, that may just be by comparison though).

[FAT BASTURD]

Moe Money you are wrong Chad did not pull out of the Western Slope it was APT and he is helping his family in Delta and he is helping run a new tour in the Western Slope and they are going to HONOR the $3,000 prize pool
Chad has always taking pride in poker and in the tours he has worked for APT DPT and LTPP now he has a good thing going again pulling out was never his idea it was done at APT's invester meeting

[Mondogarage]

That being said, I haven't played in an APT or DPT event and likely won't. I'm not confident that I would want to do business with either. APT based on recent history showing evidence that the people running it don't know the ABC's of running any kind of business let alone a poker tourney operation, and DPT strictly based on Brian's posts here (although he seems toned down a bit lately, that may just be by comparison though).

Thank you.

A pox on both their houses, as far as I'm concerned. Okay, that's a bit strong (yet a nice literary effect :) ). Point is, both tours have their problems. At this point, I could care less about either one. The only bar poker I play pays all it's prizes on the spot, and on time, always starts on time, never changes rules on the fly, has dealers who work for tips only, and is convenient to where I live. And even then, I only go once a week (at most) anymore, because most bar poker is simply terrible poker.

I agree with the "bowling night' analogy -- I continue to go once a week because I have friends there and enjoy their company. But the poker, by and large, is terrible. I found it no better at the APT, and only marginally better at the quarterly tournament.

Unless any tour can match or improve upon my present experiences, why would I play it at all? It seems to me the only real motivating factor for any of the "tours" is to keep adding bars, in an effort to increase the income stream. Nothing else matters. The in-house bar poker, however, is only intersted in doing what they can to get you to keep coming to their bar and spending money. By definition, that's is a better customer-oriented (read "player") focus.

The DPT abandoned Longmont. The APT was completely incapable of signing up a bar in Longmont. Frankly, at this point, it's their loss.

[Wetdog]

What I heard about the games in Longmont was that the players would order a glass of water - FOR FREE. They wouldn't pay for anything like drinks or food. The bars can't make their nut that way so they closed down the games.

That always made me laugh at the stupidity on both sides. The bars ought to SELL a BOTTLE of water. Some players don't want to drink while they play because they want to be at their sharpest mentally (ORLY? It's free poker. How hard is it to play?). Ok so buy a water or soda. And tip the wait staff. You're not at your mom's house, mooch.

[Mondogarage]

What I heard about the games in Longmont was that the players would order a glass of water - FOR FREE. They wouldn't pay for anything like drinks or food. The bars can't make their nut that way so they closed down the games.

That always made me laugh at the stupidity on both sides. The bars ought to SELL a BOTTLE of water. Some players don't want to drink while they play because they want to be at their sharpest mentally (ORLY? It's free poker. How hard is it to play?). Ok so buy a water or soda. And tip the wait staff. You're not at your mom's house, mooch.

Well, you heard that wrong. At the venue where I currently play about 95% of my bar poker, I'm seeing lots of pitchers of beer, 30oz (or so) mugs, lots of rail drinks, and more importantly, at least a couple dozen eating dinner, plates of nachos, etc. And yes, the water is sold in bottles there, too. Of course, there are those too cheap to do anything but nurse a single glass of soda all night, and not tip after catching a 3 outer on the river. But that's everywhere. I've seen that in Longmont, on the APT, everywhere.

I'm not sure where you claim to have heard about Longmont games, but you should probably try to speak from experience next time, dude, because what you claim to hear is completely and totally incorrect.

The only bars that have ever closed games here were the Silo (because the entire business closed down), and Woody's, which (again) totally closed down -- though I think DPT bailed from there before the restaurant closed. The Bit is running games five nights a week at good profit, 3rd Avenue is running twice a week, 4th and Main is running once a week, and all do well on the drinks front. The Bit, at least is doing well on the dinner front. A large number of players play at two or all three of those venues.

Of course, because all of those venues run their games successfully in house, without the need to pay a tour to come in and run them, I can see how folks financially affiliated with either APT or DPT would talk trash, because they haven't been able to either get (in the case of APT), or keep (in the case of DPT), a toehold in the market.

I suppose there's a part of me that's a bit curious who you claim to have heard this from, but in truth, I could care lessm because what you've said is not only incorrect, it's irrelevant. Bar poker in Longmont is thriving -- several times I tried to push APT folks into trying to get into the market, and whether through failure or indifference, it never happened. I'm sure someone's talked to DPT, as well. But we've got games seven days a week here. Truth is, we don't need the tours, we do just fine. But competition can only make things even better, in theory.

[dvrdave]

I understand your desire to have a bigger poker company come to Longmont to provide competition and make things better (debatable). But what bar in their right mind is going to choose to pay an outside company to come in and run a game when they’re doing very well running it on their own? If DPT, APT, or another company were to come in and run a game the bar would be paying at least $50 per table. Run 4 tables and that’s at least $200 from their bottom line. What motivation do they have? Will bringing in another company increase their profit for the night by more than $200? Very doubtful. So you’re probably right that APT couldn’t get in and that DPT couldn’t stay in. That probably won’t change.

[dvrdave]

Hey SamAdams12oz... Are you affiliated with DPT? If not you might want to update some of your information out there on the web.

[Mondogarage]

I understand your desire to have a bigger poker company come to Longmont to provide competition and make things better (debatable). But what bar in their right mind is going to choose to pay an outside company to come in and run a game when they’re doing very well running it on their own? If DPT, APT, or another company were to come in and run a game the bar would be paying at least $50 per table. Run 4 tables and that’s at least $200 from their bottom line. What motivation do they have? Will bringing in another company increase their profit for the night by more than $200? Very doubtful. So you’re probably right that APT couldn’t get in and that DPT couldn’t stay in. That probably won’t change.

Agreed. Well, there are other bars in Longmont, but in principle, I agree. I don't really necessarily desire to have a company come in that strongly, but more to point out that there has been a rather large market for bar poker in Longmont, for some time, that *all* the companies either served poorly, or neglected entirely. And that there's a group of us here who view all the tours in that light.

The irony is that one of the APT's most popular dealers joined APT after having dealt at one of the Longmont games for a long time, and knows how open the market was to competition.

[nrkofover]

It seems to me the only real motivating factor for any of the "tours" is to keep adding bars, in an effort to increase the income stream.

I'm currently working for a company in Colorado Springs and although one of our goals is to bring more venues into our business, the reality is that my job is to work hard at making poker fun, poker better, and poker more interesting and enjoyable for all of our players.

I've been running a free game for over a year (originally bar-centric, now poker tour) and what has happened, because of my passion for the game, my free lessons, my desire to make the game more fun, it is without a doubt the toughest most difficult free poker in all of Colorado Springs. Many free poker junkies come into that house and question their abilities, why can't they win there, why can't they find the magic they find in other places. The answer is simple, when 80% of the players have value as poker players, it's tougher. And ultimately, I want every game I deal at to have that same value, even for free poker. Surely there will be new players, aggressive donks, the 'brilliant' players who know nothing about cards, but ultimately all of us can make poker better, free or otherwise.

As far as payouts, many people in this thread have said what needs to be said. Don't play with those companies who lie about thier value. The company I work for (and the reason I don't say who it is is because this isn't a promotional venue, it is a poker discussion venue) is adamant about maintaining our humble prizes while we build the business just so we can always pay off. I'm a poker player first and my goal with this company is to give the 'return' of value that is honest and legitimate. We give prizes away. We always make sure that works. We give entertainment, that's the point of existence for us anyways. And we try to give a great poker game even in a structure of chaos. We don't promise more. We don't fail on what we do promise. That's simple business.

[FAT BASTURD]

I just wanted to say hello to all my friends and fellow poker junkies back in denver.
I miss all of you and can't wait o see all of you again.
Yes I have met alot of good and new friends on the western slope but they do not compare to you.
hoping to see you soon !
Chad McNeil

[Skate]

See you Saturday Chad-
U