Live, Legal poker room coming to Denver [Archive] - Denver Poker Forums

National Poker Challenge

01-29-2007, 08:55 AM

The first live, legal poker room will be opening in Denver in the upcoming months. National Poker Challenge offers cash prizes to the winners of their free, invitational tournaments, but it is not gambling. Members of National Poker Challenge pay a subscription for statistical tracking of their poker play. If their play is good enough, they are invited to a free tournament with cash payouts. There is never a buy-in for any of our tournaments. Our first location in Memphis, TN has bee a huge success and is giving away more than 10K a month in cash and prizes. We also give away Card Player, All In, and Bluff magazines to anyone that comes in. Why go to a smokey bar where everyone is chasing, when you can come in and play where integrity is name of the game. When our players play, they know they are palying for something and not just donking off chips.

The opening of the Denver location should be within the next several months, along with several other locations nationwide, which will increase the prize pools considerably, anywhere from 25K to 1 million dollars in pay outs. Be sure to check out our website for updated information on openings and all the information you need.This is not an online poker site, but live, legal poker rooms across the country.
National Poker Challenge is the next generation of poker!

pseudoswede

01-29-2007, 10:11 AM

So if I understand this correctly:

You pay $100 for the right* to play in 8 NL hold'em tourneys and 2 Omaha tourneys; or $100 for the right* to play in 8 NL Sit-n-Go tourneys. You then apply said-monies towards operating expenses and weekly/bi-weekly/monthly "freerolls" that award cash prizes.

* - Sure you don't have to pay this fee, but then you aren't eligible for any of the "freerolls" that you offer. If that's the case, why play in something that gives you absolutely nothing back when you can go to a bar tourney and at least win a gift certificate?

How would this be different from a casino running tournaments on the premise of "play for free, just pay a $10 administrative fee; and the top players will play in a monthly tournament"?

If you can prove you've gotten approval from the Gaming Board, I'll stop by in March to check it out.

Rick

01-29-2007, 10:20 AM

Well it appears this n00b went to the Spammers School of Etiquitte and thinks posting the same info in multiple forums will make people react to it more.

Well it did me.

The multiple posts have been moderated by Swede and removed by me and this rude as spamming ahole will/has recieved a 30 day ban so don't expect a reply from them until 3/30 :-D

And then only if on that day I am in a good mood ;)

I really hate f'kin spam. :mad:

pseudoswede

01-29-2007, 02:40 PM

So up for discussion ... how could this possibly be legal?

ctswpt76

01-29-2007, 11:49 PM

This guy was on The Circuit (Cardplayer's Podcast), (1/22/07) and mentioned they were coming to Denver.
Hadn't seen his posts here though.

Sounds like a poker pyramid scheme..... lol
cts

dexman1349

01-30-2007, 08:56 AM

So up for discussion ... how could this possibly be legal?

It seems they are exploiting a loophole in the gambling laws. Technically, there is no money being used to gamble within the game (like DPT or The Poker Tour) and there is no house rake in the tourneys. It seems like they are set-up like a club. Once you pay the dues to join the club, you can play all of the "free" games offered within the club.

The difference between these guys and the bar tourneys is that the operating costs are covered by the players instead of the bars.

If I'm mistaken, let me know. :confused:

pseudoswede

01-30-2007, 10:17 AM

It seems they are exploiting a loophole in the gambling laws. Technically, there is no money being used to gamble within the game (like DPT or The Poker Tour) and there is no house rake in the tourneys. It seems like they are set-up like a club. Once you pay the dues to join the club, you can play all of the "free" games offered within the club.

When DPT was starting out, all players had to donate $10 to the Children's Hospital to play. Granted, the collection was done at the bar, but the Gaming Commission swooped down and said that's a big no-no.

Brent_in_Aurora

01-30-2007, 11:59 AM

I would like them to try to operate in Colorado if for only the potential of bringing a legal challenge. I would take the under on their success. While it appears to me that illegal aliens get preferential treatment by the gov't and courts, we are persecuted.

This is their website: http://www.npcpoker.com/

Here is an article about them: http://pittsburgh.bizjournals.com/memphis/stories/2006/10/30/story12.html

FlushUOut

01-30-2007, 09:35 PM

thanks bro,

yeah, this concept sounds very, very cool. i have a friend that knows someone in the company that's been to the place in memphis (6 degrees of kevin bacon). it sounded like, to me, it was a whole new ballgame of texas hold'em. same game but they have an actual, stat tracking program in every game that gives players feedback on their in-game performance. they had all the business licenses and everything. he said there is no loophole and that he thought this place was going to bring bar leagues to a complete stop, unless people like that environment. imagine that, a dedicated sports bar poker room in Denver. i can't wait.

Flushy

i'm not a lawyer, but i watch court tv, but i would think they would have HAD to done the legal research or no landlord would lease to them. i don't know law but i know that much. to bring this game to national level, i doubt that there is a legal concern with the bar and restauraunts having games in their places and we ALL know those are illegal as hell with all the under the table money. plus, it looks like these guys are giving away a ****load of money weekly and monthly. sounds pretty good to me.

Flushy

pseudoswede

01-31-2007, 12:09 AM

plus, it looks like these guys are giving away a ****load of money weekly and monthly. sounds pretty good to me.

It doesn't cost $10/person to put up on a website how many times you've played and what place you finished in.

Wetdog

01-31-2007, 09:11 AM

It doesn't cost $10/person to put up on a website how many times you've played and what place you finished in.

Rocky Mountain Poker League does that now. No cost to join.

pseudoswede

01-31-2007, 11:26 AM

Rocky Mountain Poker League does that now. No cost to join.
What I was implying was those "freerolls" are the results of charging $10 per person PER TOURNAMENT to have your name on a website. If you're lucky enough to be invited to play, then you actually have a chance to win your money back.

Brent_in_Aurora

01-31-2007, 11:52 AM

I had the same thought as swede and I don't think that the structure is +EV. However, if they are willing to give it a go, I think that it will help the overall chance of a positive outcome for legalization.

From their website, you can play for free but you don't get any prizes. That is going to be a problem with a huge mix of skill levels, collusion and chip dumping. I would play for free just to play the spoiler.

pseudoswede

01-31-2007, 06:25 PM

From their website, you can play for free but you don't get any prizes. That is going to be a problem with a huge mix of skill levels, collusion and chip dumping. I would play for free just to play the spoiler.
But, there is also some fine print in there saying that free players will NEVER play with the paying players.

In addition, those "I paid nothing" tournaments may or may not be self-dealing.

FlushUOut

01-31-2007, 08:00 PM

psuedo,

it looks like they do a bunch more than just using a finishing position and chips. it says there is a computer at every table. i can't stand it anymore not knowing about this anymore. i'm going to try to track my friend that knows something about this. obviously, we're missing something. they have "patent pending" on the logo on the home page. if there is something they are patenting, we're missing (out) on somthing. i'll let you know if i find something out.

Flush

FlushUOut

01-31-2007, 08:17 PM

brent,

what is +ev for us newbies? what legalization are you talking about?

Flush

ctswpt76

02-01-2007, 12:06 AM

+ev = Positive Expected Value In other words good for the player. -ev is the opposite and bad for a player. This is usually used for any play that is tracked "over the long run".
Hope this helps
cts

Wetdog

02-01-2007, 10:05 AM

From the Memphis Business Journal article:
"...the franchises will require investments of between $95,000-$135,000, but after those fees, the owners will own everything in the franchise."

Quite a lot for an unproven (over time) business.

"The next Custom Travel Tournament is just around the corner. Although Mike Cook hasn't taken his cruise yet, you might be flying to Las Vegas and staying at the Stratosphere!"

Ooooooooh! Talk about a luxurious vacation! Why not just give them the $100 for 3 nights that they would have spent on the reservation? What a schmidthole place to send someone to.

pseudoswede

02-01-2007, 11:08 AM

it looks like they do a bunch more than just using a finishing position and chips.
That is true, but let's look at the stats you have to pay to keep track of...

Games Played
Finishing Position
Average Finishing Position

Okay, most bar tourneys don't keep track of where you finish unless you win.

Games Won - If you are the highest chip count at the end of each 2 hour game, you win the game
Chips Won - Total chips earned in the 20 tracked games
Average Chips Won

Woah!! So this means that you don't play down to a single winner if the tourney reaches the 2-hour mark?! So this also means you pretty much need to play hyper-agressive and pray for no suck-outs.

Number of Re-Loads

So this means you can actually lose more than $10 per tourney? This could get very expensive.

Number of Opponents
Average Number of Opponents

Meh.

Starting Seat Position - For tracking your best seat results

For the superstitious...

Daily Games Played - Average number of games played per day

If the tourneys only last 2 hours with no definite winner, I could play 3 in one night!

Number of Bounties - We will randomly pick one seat each game for the bounty
Bad Beats - If you get Aces full of Jacks beat, you'll earn a Bad Beat

Whereas most places will award you every time you hit such a bad beat/bounty, only the person with the most bad beats/bounties in a given month gets money their "buy-in" back.

Rank - All points gathered in our tracking system will produce your ranking

This rewards players who {1} play in a ton of tourneys--at $10 each (and don't forget two out of every 10 tourneys MUST be Omaha!) and {2} plays so agressively that they can amass a large number of chips within the first 90 minutes of a tourney.

And, like I've said, I would love to be proven wrong.

dexman1349

02-01-2007, 02:02 PM

That is true, but let's look at the stats you have to pay to keep track of...

Along with what you're saying, I could track all of these stats by myself with a pen and a pad of paper. $10per tourney would buy a really nice pen and paper set-up.

If you want to put money into a tournament and play for large cash pots, and do it the poven legal way up at the hill. I realize there are a fair amount of "tourists" up the hill and they are typically bad players, but compare that to the people who play for only $10. I guarantee I play alot differenly if I have only $10 invested in one of these games compared to a $50-$100 tourney up the hill.

my $0.02.

Brent_in_Aurora

02-01-2007, 02:39 PM

brent,

what is +ev for us newbies? what legalization are you talking about?

Flush

EV is expected value over the long term. For example, if I pay you $1.10 for every heads and you pay me $1.00 for every tails, you have +EV of $0.10 per flip. Now, you can flip 5 tails in a row and I will be up $5, but if you continue flippin, the chance will eventually even out and you will reach your theorical +EV of $0.10 per flip. EV is the fundamental aspect of gambling and quantifying risk/return.

The reason that I wonder if their structure is +EV is that you need to earn your way into the final tournies where a bad beat or even being able to play would adversely effect your EV. Plus, you will be playing against the winners, which means that the competition is greater. So for the sake of argument, if I can get the seat for the $750 monthly prize SNG, I need to finish at least 3rd in that tourney 66% to break even ($750*20%=$150 2 out of 3 attempts = $300 less $300 to enter it 3 times). How hard is it for me to qualify for the monthly tourney? If I qualify 50% of the time, I then need to win the monthly tourney 50% in order to make money at it. ($750*50% prize=$375 less $200 costs in attempts to get there = $175 * 50% that I win the tourney = $75).

My historical numbers for online SNG's are about 30% ITM and 10% to 15% winning. I have done a little better live, but not 50%. My average time live for SNG's is about an hour, but live is usually 2+ hours. The last 90 player bar tourney that I played took 6 hours.

The legality of the structure remains to be proved. While social gaming exemptions allow for home poker games that are not raked, I do not see how they can do what they propose to do. I would like them to succeed as it will help poker in general. I also do not see where they can claim any sort of patent right on what they are proposing, but I do not know what they are proposing in specific. In general, there are few barriers to entry for what they are proposing and if they are able to succeed, I predict that there will be plenty of competition, which will drive the cost of playing down and the prizes up. As a player, both of those are great.

DenverPokerTour

02-01-2007, 03:47 PM

I have heard of this type of league before. I have several comments about it.
1. Its really sounds illegal.
2. If it is LEGAL, don't you think that myself and every other poker tour / league in Colorado would switch to this format? (We have over 8000 specific players every month. This would make me an additional $800,000.00 a month, minimum.)
3. I mean, why pay for a franchise when anyone can just copy it?
4. The state said to me years ago "No cost directly or indirectly may occur!"
5. It really sounds like a scam to me.
6. This person has posted this same "offer" on other poker blog sites that I participate on. I am not to trusting about this "offer".

Brian Masters
Denver Poker Tour

FlushUOut

02-01-2007, 06:03 PM

i like to play devils advocate so i will, plus i think a dedicated poker room sounds so ****ing awesome. again, i'm not a lawyer but i DO know that it is illegal to put "patent pending" behind a trademark without the paperwork (i have no clue as to what they are patenting either....waiting for a call from a friend of a friend of a......)

as for tracking all the stats that they do, there is no way that you could run that many games and that many players that you could track any amount of stats with a pen and paper. i don't know how they do it either but it doesn't sound like it could be copied like you think it could. that would take a LOT of dough to do that. probably a rich group with family in law. from what i read, there is serious computer based tech in it. i think they feel that they will be the best buy of poker while everyone else sells their "mom and pop"......kinda of a psuedo comparison.

what do you mean scam? how do you scam someone by playing poker? also, if they are selling franshises, there has to be legal paperwork. i looked into buying a quizno's before and they presented me with the exact info (UFOC) that is mentioned on their franchise page. there is no such thing as "scaming" a franchise. it's either legal paperwork or any interested person will be a moron to sign a napkin.

wow...i'm new to the area. 8000 players is a ton. that sounds like a lot of work. i'll just stick to playing.

PoWdA

02-02-2007, 09:49 AM

Personally I doubt this will fly for long if it can even get off the ground.

Brent_in_Aurora

02-02-2007, 10:36 AM

I think the concept works, but the pricing and prizes are wrong. This is not a cheap place to do business, either. The worst that can happen is that they bring additional scrutiny on poker in general. The best is that they thrive and there are more games. I am not risking anything, but I give them the right to take a shot. They have more legal issues than they understand.

They are coming into the market that has seen quite a bit of turmoil with the other enforcement efforts, so maybe the time is right.

idh78

02-02-2007, 06:07 PM

loomisdl

02-03-2007, 10:11 AM

Raise the $5 limit in Colorado and this idea along with the "underground" card clubs in Denver probably go away or at least suffer.

I am one of the few who will drive all the way to Blackhawk just to play $2-$5, but there are many many more who would make the drive if they could play higher....especially people who will only play NL.

I don't know how much this would cut into bar games for two reasons....A lot of pub poker players won't put up $100 to play(even though most of them spend more than double that a month on food & booze. Secondly I'm guessing they will not be able to secure a liquor license which would eliminate the drink first play poker second crowd.

I'd certainly make the drive more often for pot limit. I have a hard time making myself enjoy the 2-5 spread limit game. It's a grind.

The bar tournies are entertaining from what I've seen. This new pay to play "free" game doesn't really appeal to me. If I'm going to play for money I'd just as soon put it on the table and shuffle 'em up, not leave it up to what some glorified spreadsheet has to say about it's limited statistical analysis of my game.

FlushUOut

02-03-2007, 01:27 PM

I'd certainly make the drive more often for pot limit. I have a hard time making myself enjoy the 2-5 spread limit game. It's a grind.

The bar tournies are entertaining from what I've seen. This new pay to play "free" game doesn't really appeal to me. If I'm going to play for money I'd just as soon put it on the table and shuffle 'em up, not leave it up to what some glorified spreadsheet has to say about it's limited statistical analysis of my game.

i agree. 2-5 is too much of a sit-wait-sit-wait, pocket aa's / no callers. GRIND.

i can't stand the bar games with all the smoking and game play that borders from boring to lunacy. besides, what bar league gives away 10k a month? i'll take my chances on a complete "luck out, suck out" game and the smoke for that if it existed, but it doesn't. it can be fun for some of the laughs at the ridiculous play but 10k is not a Wal-mart gift card or bar tab. i agree that this new league won't be for everyone, but it looks like it will be for those that want a more serious poker game without it being so serious that someone is out to get your cash. if you look at the front page, you don't see our "cast" of characters, or what i had in detroit before moving (thank God). it looks like a completely different crowd of people. more of what you would see in a casino. isn't tunica (sp?) right in memphis' back yard too? if it can survive in that area, just think of how it would do around areas without casino's nearby. hell, they might even be backed by casino's...who knows? i guess we won't know anything until they get here and find out what the grand "plan" is. i'm open minded. if it's poker, i can win something that is fun or is meaningful, i'm there.

$100 a month / $10 a game....you can't even take a date to a movie for that. big deal. like someone above said, some spend twice that much just to skirt dui's every month.

FlushUOut

02-03-2007, 04:48 PM

with you guys not playing in this new league, that gives me better chances at the 10k ....:-D

pseudoswede

02-04-2007, 08:47 AM

i can't stand the bar games with all the smoking and game play that borders from boring to lunacy.

Actually, smoking is banned in almost every bar in Colorado now. Hopefully, the State Senate will soon pass the amendment to ban smoking in casinos (and hopefully Rick won't ban me from the forums ;) :D).

besides, what bar league gives away 10k a month?
There is one bar league that is giving away one $10k buy-in to the WSOP (in addition to 11 $1000 WSOP events). Another one is giving away five buy-ins to some $1000-1500 WSOP events. Granted, I would just rather win cold, hard cash instead of a buy-in, but it's not bad considering it's free. I'm a cheap SOB, so I rarely spend $10 per tournament in the bars. :-D

DenverPokerTour

02-06-2007, 12:21 PM

pseudoswede

02-06-2007, 01:18 PM

States also talking about creating some legislature in regards to the "FREE BAR POKER TOURS & LEAGUES".

Is it going to be good or bad for y'all?

FlushUOut

02-06-2007, 08:29 PM

I just got off the phone with someone who wishes to remain anonymous from the State of Colorado. Their opinion is this is illegal. I specifically asked for clarification about this "league format" and "tracking information". In their opinion, STILL ILLEGAL! I asked if I could change my format to match this, "HELL NO".

States also talking about creating some legislature in regards to the "FREE BAR POKER TOURS & LEAGUES".

Brian Masters
Denver Poker Tour

brian,

thanks for taking the time to ask about it. i'm still trying to find out more info too. did you feel that you had enough information about it to ask about legalities? when i look at it and think about it, i feel as though there is something that is not obvious to me but i can't connect the dots. thoughts?

Flush

DenverPokerTour

02-08-2007, 12:38 PM

Just because you pay your "membership dues" or "tracking fees" off property, doesn't make the game a non-cash or non-buy in game. If this was the case, then every bar, restaurant, Ace Hardware, and Home Depot could do the same thing and open their own poker rooms in Colorado. That would mean poker rooms every block.

Do you think the B&M casinos would allow this?
Do you think the State of Colorado would allow it?

There are so many problems with the way they are trying to act like this is illegal. The state will surely shut them down before they start. And i know for a fact that the State is investigating.

Brian Masters
Denver Poker Tour

Brent_in_Aurora

02-08-2007, 12:54 PM

Personally, I believe that the current poker laws are wrong. It would also be a great thing to have card rooms that are licensed and regulated. The bet limits at Blackhawk suck.

If this group is going to challenge the law in Colorado, more power to them. I would not rate their potential of success very high, but I would love for them to get a chance. Who knows, for all of the -EV structure, I may play in these tournies.

FlushUOut

02-12-2007, 11:50 AM

pseudoswede

02-12-2007, 11:31 PM

wow....is that how this works? i'm not sure of anything but i've not seen any mention of paying for anything off site. where did you see that?
Click on the "League Challenge" tab at the top of the homepage.

It lists prices.

pseudoswede

02-23-2007, 02:01 PM

A local outfit has gotten into the game. :D

http://www.amseriespoker.com/amteam2.html

Bruno and ctswpt76, you may want to avoid them until they get it ironed out.

ctswpt76

02-23-2007, 02:08 PM

Yeah, last night I asked how you get to "Gold" status, and they said "Pay $149".....
I wanted it just so I could sit down first, but the sign-up sheet doesn't fill up as quickly as other places, so I figure I'll keep my $150 bucks and just get there 10-15 mins early.....

I still tip the dealer, but that's it. Maybe for the time being I'll leave my bankroll at home, that way if it gets busted, I won't have anything for the cops to take. ;)

cts

Bruno

02-24-2007, 10:25 AM

A local outfit has gotten into the game. :D

http://www.amseriespoker.com/amteam2.html

Bruno and ctswpt76, you may want to avoid them until they get it ironed out.

Sweede.....I play sporadically at one of the clubs downtown, and in a couple of raked homegames, a bar tour issue isn't going to scare me off.....

the $159 (or whatever), they charge for "gold" membership isn't required of everyone, it doesn't impact the odds of you winning, etc. It's a completely different animal then charging "everyone" a fee to play or raking a pot.

Now, in regards to the "gold" membership, I won't purchase one because I don't think it has enough value to me. I got hats, bad sunglasses, don't want a framed BB card of myself, etc.....

FlushUOut

02-25-2007, 03:14 AM

when will all of these online "freeroll" people get it that it just isn't fun to sit and click a mouse when everyone knows that you want the feel of chips and the actual cards in your hands. i quit playing online when the integrity of the game was lost in the obvious "house" advantage to build pots with "ceritified" software. seriously, how many times did you see monster hands beat by off the chart, in regards to odds, hands. it was way more than any live action table. i'll stick to chips and cards.

Brent_in_Aurora

07-11-2007, 03:37 PM

Any updates on their progress to open up in Denver? I see that they are adding locations nationally.

DenverPokerTour

07-12-2007, 11:54 AM

It has been ruled illegal in Colorado. I have been paying attention to their growth in other states, and many of the states are evaluating if it is actually illegal after all.

Brian Masters
Denver Poker Tour

Crazy Iraqi

07-14-2007, 11:29 AM

I think the reason that they are being ruled illegal is because the politicians see poker as a game of chance and not as a game of skill...

I would bet if you were to take 10 people who know how to play the game and 10 people who don't and let them play together almost every time the people who know how to play the game would win in the end, because luck can only take you so far...

Crazy Iraqi

Wetdog

07-16-2007, 09:11 AM

A better test is to agree to strive to LOSE each hand you play, provided your opponent strives to win. By proving that it takes a measure of skill to affect the outcome of the hand, it can be surmised that the game involves way more than random luck as opposed to a purely random luck game like craps, baccarat or the church ladies' favorite bingo.

idh78

07-17-2007, 10:59 PM