Channel 9 news

[FreshMeat]

Channel 9 news in doing a story Monday night @10:30 PM on the police raids over the weekend at the illegal poker clubs here in Denver.

[Rick]

This was also in the RMN online this morning:


41 held in 2 raids; illegal gaming alleged
By Marilyn Robinson And Hector Gutierrez, Rocky Mountain News
February 14, 2006

State and local authorities raided two social clubs on Denver's East Colfax Avenue over the weekend and arrested 41 people on charges of illegal gambling, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation said Monday.

The Saturday night raids capped off a three-month investigation into the Hop Sing Tong, 4130 E. Colfax Ave., and the Asian International Inc., 7520 E. Colfax Ave., the CBI said. The probe into the two clubs began after the Colorado Division of Gaming alleged that licensed dealers might be involved in illegal Texas Hold 'Em poker games in Denver.

Agents seized about $9,000 in cash during the busts. Authorities handed out 41 summonses charging illegal gambling and professional gambling to the men and women who were at the two locations.

They were ordered to appear in Denver County Court on March 10, Bob Brown, CBI's agent in charge, said. Most of those taken into custody were fingerprinted, photographed and released.

Four of the people taken into custody also had active warrants, Brown said. One handgun also was recovered. None of the men and women cited was identified Monday.

A man, who described himself as a trustee of the Hop Sing Tong club, called the allegations of an illegal gambling operation "ridiculous." The man, who identified himself only as Jonathan, said the club runs a clean operation and bans alcohol and drugs in the building.

He said players donate money to help pay rent and other bills for the use of the building. The club does not charge anyone to play, the man said.

The CBI's Brown said the clubs were raking $4 from each hand, and that up to 40 hands were being dealt each hour, the reason the clubs were using professional dealers.

Undercover agents were invited as guests to the poker games prior to Saturday's raids, Brown said.

The buildings housing the alleged operations had no windows and the doors were always locked. At the Hop Sing Tong club, a sign reads: Private Club; Members Only.

The businesses have security cameras so the occupants inside the buildings can see who is outside, Brown said.

The clubs were operating 24 hours a day, seven days a week, the agents said.

According to state records, the property owner for the Hop Sing Tong social club is the Yick Keong Association. The property owner for the Asian International is listed as K & Y Properties.

In its articles of incorporation filed with the secretary of state's office, Asian International describes the corporation as the "formation of individuals of Asian ancestry devoted to social and fraternal activities and in particular for various Asian charitable pursuits."

[Timmay]

Mmmmm, interesting.

It would seem the operators say no rake was taken, 5O says different.

Even if the players were simply "donating money to help pay rent and other bills for the use of the building", that is still a no no.

Remember kids, run a clean game to avoid this happening to you.

[FreshMeat]

I just find it really amusing that these clubs exist in general. The balls it takes to open one up when you know its' illegal must be huge. I am certain the profits they make are. Its' really funny that they advertised themselves asa private social club, and yet they allowed police and others to play in the game. Seems to me, they got too greedy. But until the state actually fines people enough that operate these types of clubs, it seems that paying the fines will just be a cost of doing business.

[Rick]

The balls it takes to open one up

The GREED more like it. You probably have no idea just how much some of these raked 'home games' are making. We are talking impressive numbers here.

[FreshMeat]

Let's do the math...
$4 per hand rake
40 hands per hour
=$160.00 per hour
X
8 hours
$1280.00
Oh, and the newspaper article said they had four tables
$5120.00 for 8 hours worth of work?
And what is the fine going to be? $500? Unless the state cracks down on this more severly, I might have to go into this line of work.

[ctswpt76]

They also said they were running 24/7......
$15,360 per day
$406,800 per month
$5,529,600 per year

Man, and people wonder how casinos make money.....lol ;)

[idh78]

They also said they were running 24/7......
$15,360 per day
$406,800 per month
$5,529,600 per year

Man, and people wonder how casinos make money.....lol ;)


Kinda makes those bad beat jackpots not seem like all that much.....

I wonder what you are faced with if you get caught? It seems to me like you could do some decent jail time for something like this but who knows....It's really the limited gaming law we have here in CO that allows these card clubs to flourish....most people wouldn't take the risk of playing in these games if they could find a NL game up the hill at the stakes they wanted....

[ctswpt76]

Ch 9 said they could get up to 18 months in prison...not sure what the $ fine was.....

[FreshMeat]

But who's going to get in trouble?
"Johnathan" as he called himself, is going to say "I don't run the game, I'm just a middle man, and I thought it was legal."
"The Dealers" are going to say "I just did what I was told."
"The Players" are going to say "I thought this was a legal game or I wouldn't be playing."

Besides they probably have already opened up down the street.

That's why I play real money on the hill... and in the LEGAL tourneys here in Denver.

[ctswpt76]

But who's going to get in trouble?
"Johnathan" as he called himself, is going to say "I don't run the game, I'm just a middle man, and I thought it was legal."
"The Dealers" are going to say "I just did what I was told."
"The Players" are going to say "I thought this was a legal game or I wouldn't be playing."

The owners of the establishment probably, but like my friend who's a cop in Boulder County tells me: "We don't let ignorance get people out of tickets (trouble)" So the "I didn't know" rule doesn't apply...
I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Gmblers7]

You guy's are streaching your numbers just a little bit!!

Yep the hill is a good place to go play "BINGO" poker.
Go drive 6 hrs to New Mexico !!

If you like playing roulette poker go to colorado casinos.
If you like winning $$ There are plenty of place's to play in Denver

[ctswpt76]

You guy's are streaching your numbers just a little bit!!


I know, I know, that means they have full tables 24/7/365....but it was a fun math problem. ;)

I'm saving my $$ for the WSOP in July, can't wait! :cool:

[Patrick]

But who's going to get in trouble?
"Johnathan" as he called himself, is going to say "I don't run the game, I'm just a middle man, and I thought it was legal."
"The Dealers" are going to say "I just did what I was told."
"The Players" are going to say "I thought this was a legal game or I wouldn't be playing."
Ignorance is not a valid defense.

[pseudoswede]

If you like winning $$ There are plenty of place's to play in Denver
Yeah. Just make sure you don't bring along any undercover cops! :lol:

[FreshMeat]

Well obviously we are stretching the numbers a bit....
Let's say the are doing 10% of the math that we figured out....
That is still Half a Million a year.
Still over a thousand a day...
Almost makes running an illegal game worth while.

[FreshMeat]

From what I just read in the newspaper regarding a past poker game raid... They were saying it is a misdeamor, $750 fine, and up to 6 months in jail. But doing a little more research, I haven't been able to find a case in which the state actually sent someone to jail for running an illegal poker game. So, I guess $750 will be the cost of doing business. I forsee many more clubs opening up if this is the case.

[adaugust]

For those "professional dealers" it means the end of their gaming license. That is not a penalty that I would want to pay. It really isnt worth it, since once you lose it, it is hard to impossible to get back. I know I would not take that chance as a licensed dealer!!!!

[FreshMeat]

Well a couple of things to think about. Do you realy believe the "host" of the game actually cares if the dealers lose their liscense? They are a dime a dozen. The "dealers" knew that what they were doing when they signed on for the job was illegal, so the should expect a punishment when the ywere caught.
However, the "host" of the game is most likely going to just pay a simple fine, and will possibly eventually do it again. A $750 fine for making thousands of dollars a week is nothing, once again just the cost of doing business.

[pseudoswede]

A $750 fine for making thousands of dollars a week is nothing, once again just the cost of doing business.
So what happens if you get caught a second, third, fourth time? I don't think it'll be just a $750 fine and a few days in jail.....

[pseudoswede]

For those "professional dealers" it means the end of their gaming license. That is not a penalty that I would want to pay. It really isnt worth it, since once you lose it, it is hard to impossible to get back. I know I would not take that chance as a licensed dealer!!!!
Do you still deal for DPT? How does working for tips-only affect your gaming license? What if these dealers were just working for tips-only?

[adaugust]

It doesnt affect anything. I am still working for DPT. I am looking still to get a job up the hill, but it hasnt happened as of yet. I will continue to work for DPT until it does. It is a very good experience and a fun time!

[A-M-C]

Wow, this is all being blown out of proportion.... but the figure of 5 million a year is pretty funny. The best thing that could happen for the social clubs is for this to all just go away and for them to pay their fines. Because if they take it to court which they plan on doing they could end up finishing themselves off. This has happened in California and Alaska where the proved that Poker is a game of skill and not of chance. If poker is demed a game of skill then the gambling laws don't apply. As far as the dealers being professionals up the hill a couple of my friends where dealing at the time of the raids and none of them had licenses. If they did have licenses it would have been worse on them then the game runners because it's a Felony for a licensed dealer to get busted in a illegal game. Kinda funny you knew his name was Johnathan since I don't beleive he said it in the interview but they can bring absolutely nothing back on his because he wasn't even there. I think it is so funny a lot of the users of this site wont playing a raked game in real life but will do so on the internet, since they make ten thousand times more than a brick and mortar room. But being apart of this community for some time as I have, I've realized you can't change some people minds. But you are correct the two places that did get busted... it was their fault for opening the door for people they don't know.

[ctswpt76]

Kinda funny you knew his name was Johnathan since I don't beleive he said it in the interview

Actually they did say on Channel 4 or 9 that he went by "Johnathan"....

Not to beat a dead horse.....too late.....

[idh78]

. I think it is so funny a lot of the users of this site wont playing a raked game in real life but will do so on the internet, since they make ten thousand times more than a brick and mortar room. But being apart of this community for some time as I have, I've realized you can't change some people minds. But you are correct the two places that did get busted... it was their fault for opening the door for people they don't know.

My reasoning for prefering non-raked games has several factors. First of all, in a home game where there is no rake, the game is generally more enjoyable. I am there to have a good time with good people first and formost...if I make a little money great, if not I can still enjoy myself. Most raked games are bigger stakes and a lot more 'serious'

Secondly there is the added risk, not only the chance of getting busted, but also being robbed, cheated, assulted, etc....I have seen that when the stakes get high, the emotions run higher, and I'd rather be sitting in a casino than in a private club(granted we don't have this option in CO)

That being said, there are some good places to play in this city where the games are raked, and there are some that are not. I am not going to knock anyone who would prefer to stay away from raked games, I mean say what you want, but they ARE illegal, and that is a pretty valid reason if you ask me.

[FreshMeat]

Tips are allowed to be taken by the dealers of the local tours. After calling the State, apparently there was a letter issued by the State that stated tips were acceptable, just frowned upon. (Maybe they are worried about filing the appropriate tax paperwork. Regardless, the poker tours seem to have been around for a while. I am sure if it was illegal to take tips, they wouldn't be allowed to. The State would have done something about it.

On another note.... HAVE YOU SEEN ALL THE TIP JARS AT BUSINESSES THAT DON'T DESERVE THEM?

I was at a doughnut shop last week and they had a tip cup out. i have seen this at Starbucks, Subway, Quiznos, and many other traditional no tipped places. Look! Your a sanwhich, coffee, doughnut maker! You don't deserve a tip. I don't tip the chef at a restaurant, I tip the server!

Whoo... morning rant out of the way. Time to go play a Central Station. See ya'll later.

[idh78]

On another note.... HAVE YOU SEEN ALL THE TIP JARS AT BUSINESSES THAT DON'T DESERVE THEM?

I was at a doughnut shop last week and they had a tip cup out. i have seen this at Starbucks, Subway, Quiznos, and many other traditional no tipped places. Look! Your a sanwhich, coffee, doughnut maker! You don't deserve a tip. I don't tip the chef at a restaurant, I tip the server!


I whole-heartedly agree...

[Timmay]

I think it is so funny a lot of the users of this site wont playing a raked game in real life but will do so on the internet, since they make ten thousand times more than a brick and mortar room.

No, I won't play an ILLEGAL raked game...big difference. I play at raked games all the time up the hill.

But you are correct the two places that did get busted... it was their fault for opening the door for people they don't know.

No, again...it was their fault for running an ILLEGAL game.

[nrkofover]

The illegal thing is the biggest problem. Even the tourney I host once a month, people are always asking about the legality of the game (we even have an ADA and a cop who play regularly) simply because they don't want legal problems in their life, which seems quite easy to understand. It's completely legal, 100% payout, 100% friends.

I have friends who invite me to private raked games and tourneys (they do the $40 tourney buy-in, $25 for poker, $15 for food and drinks) and even though I believe that should be perfectly legal, I don't want to risk playing with a bunch of people I don't know, taking $400 of their money and then having a beat down in a parking lot, or even worse being arrested (in my case a misdeamenor arrest wouldn't go well with the already extensive legal problems I've had throughout my life).

I've always been a believer in freedom for vices like gambling. An organized and controlled legal game is better for the state, society and the players. It removes the systemic crime inherent in illegal gaming.

Someone mentioned on this board that having the US legitimize online poker sites would be the best thing possible. Taxes would be paid, guidelines would be set for rakes and random generators (some just don't seem very random), the players would be more secure in the dollars they spend to play games online. It's a better idea than leaving the online gaming to offshore sites without oversight. The same holds true for poker rooms in states with limited or no gambling, legalizing and establishing guidelines for them makes the game better for everyone.